Monday, September 13 – Recreational Use
The DNR Forum on recreation is now closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
Part One: “What types of recreation activities do you participate in on DNR-managed lands and where on DNR-managed lands do you like to recreate?”
Part Two: “How has recreation on DNR-managed lands changed over the years?”
Background – Recreation on DNR managed lands
Where are DNR trust lands? The following map links can help you:
Devon McNiel 8:30 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I use dirt bike and 4×4 trails mainly in Elbe hills, Walker Valley, Tahuya, and Reiter (when it was open). I have also participated in work parties in Elbe, Tahuya, and Reiter and will continue to do so.
pt 2
I think recreation has changed in recent years because more and more people have been getting educated about how most of the maintenance on these trail systems in volunteer work and that the work parties you come across on the trails are the ones keeping places open for all to enjoy. Are there still some bad apples, yes of course. Just like the hikers that leave garbage behind, or those that crap in the woods and leave TP behind. There are some in every group. Education is key, the majority want to do the right thing, some just don’t know what wrong is.
Big medicine 8:08 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
Wheelin’ is not a crime.. Man and machine together in harmony with nature is a wonderfull thing.
Sharon Hoofnagle 2:53 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I am a trail rider,a member of Back Country Horsemen, and enjoy riding my horses on Blanchard and Stewart Mt, and occasionally Les Hilde. I ride Stewart Mt several times a week. While not a formal trailhead there are miles of DNR trails on Stewart.The DNR has given us access to trails close to our homes, short evening and weekend rides are an important part of my life. Blanchard is a treasure for all trail users. I also enjoy hiking.
Regarding changes- there is more management and rules. However the trails are better maintained. Our DNR contacts are helpful in educating us on trail maintenance
Ann 2:39 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
Another horseperson (& hiker & biker) chiming in, agreeing with a lot of what’s already been said. Everyone who enjoys getting out into the woods, regardless of their preferred mode of transport, has more to gain by teaming up to preserve access to areas and trails than by pointing fingers at each other. Kudos to everyone who puts in time on maintenance, trash-pickup, and workdays!
The comment I haven’t seen yet: I can understand the DNR need to gate off areas to prevent access by road vehicles to prevent partying, vandalism, dumping, etc. I’d like to put in a plug for making sure that whatever gate is put in is passable by the sorts of recreation that DNR still wants on that location, whether it’s hikers, bikers, horses, etc. What is easy for a hiker to get around is harder for a biker, and still harder for a horse; even if those uses are still permitted in a spot, they may be impossible due to the type and placement of a particular gate.
Donald Parks 2:13 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
The DNR needs more enforcement monies due to the uncontrolled nature of motorized recreation. These monies must be used for restoration and are important because un-managed and uncontrolled motorized uses has damaged trees, soils, water quality, and wildlife habitat causing Clean Water Act violations and jeopardizing the State’s Habitat Conservation Plan for too many of these lands. Damage to the trees also impacts growth rates that in turn impacts the revenue stream for our schools and other trust beneficiaries of the State trust lands. We must not degrade water quality and otherwise and protect fish and wildlife habitat. In too many cases places, including Reiter, have been damaged by motorized recreation. This must stop.
Un-managed motorized recreation drives non-motorized users off their public lands, a typical consequence of this type of activity. The forests belong to all of us, but nobody has the right to damage these lands or ruin the experience of everyone else. Education and enforcement are part of how we must stop this abuse of public lands. DNR needs adequate and dedicated funding to keep enforcement personnel on the ground ensuring this damage does not occur. Motorized recreation managers must have adequate enforcement resources to perform their duties.
Kirsten 2:09 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I enjoy hiking on public lands, and have done so on DNR and other public lands where I’ve lived out of Bellingham, the Olympic Peninsula, and Methow Valley. My personal preference would be that there always be some lands where “peaceful” recreation can take place, and that sensitive habitats be protected, where no recreation can take place. However, I value other’s choices for recreation and hope that as many people as possible can get out and see some of these beautiful areas and thereby keep voting to protect them into the future.
Frank Knight 1:24 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
Wow! Plenty of folks are against any motorized activities and I would like to explain my situation. I became disabled from a serious back injury in 1989. I am not in a wheelchair but could use one sometimes. If I am able to do an 1/8 mile hike without mass pain… I consider it a milestone! I was an avid hiker before my crippling and those hikes almost always began where my 4×4 roads ended. I love 4-wheelin’ and always have… in years past… they were the perfect combination to get “way back in” where I could enjoy and commune with nature in this beautiful NW but now am limited to open roads or trails of which are few and far between.
We always bring gloves and garbage bags to clean up any trash we find and always do find some left by disrespectful people. I am usually with a group so trash collecting is much easier and faster with many helping hands.
It hurts to see discrimination between folks that all share a common love of the outdoors in our great NorthWest and I just think that you shouldn’t judge all motorized off-road vehicle owners by the actions of a few. There are those of us that do our stewardship part and beyond for our Mother Earth and find great satisfaction in doing so no matter what some folks classify us as.
DNR is asking for help in making decisions about land use… not “finger pointing”… c’mon… I assume we are all adults… please show some decency and respect for others as you show your decency and respect for nature.
Thanks
Peace
Jeff G. 9:48 am on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I hike, mountain-bike and geocache in the Marckworth State Forest. In the last several years more and more roads have been gated off, including now a gate across the main road that leads from the south (Stossel Creek) area to the north (off of Ben Howard Road). I am told that this closure was intended to stop late-night parties on the public land – an unnecessarily blunt instrument that punishes all legitimate users because, apparently, existing rules regarding use of the land were not enforced. That approach to “land management” should stop. I know gates are cheaper than patrols, but this is public land. State land provides unique access to wild areas that are often much closer to “home” than federal land, so their recreational importance should not be ignored or discounted.
I would like to be able to target shoot on state land, but there are very few opportunities. From the signage, the entire Marckworth forest appears to be closed to this use. This doesn’t stop people from shooting of course, but it’s done in unsafe places, illegally, and with no regulation. I firmly believe that if there were designated target shooting areas on state lands, shooting groups would be good stewards of those places – including cleaning them up and self-regulating safe and responsible use. Providing a safe and legal outlet for this legitimate use of public land could go a long way in reducing unsafe and illegal shooting.
Herb Gerhardt 2:01 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I agree on the shooting issue. Target shooting and sighting in hunting rifles should be permitted in DESIGNATED AREAS. To tell a shotter, you can’t shoot here is NOT and acceptable answer unless you can direct them to a safe shooting spot. The ultimate responsibility for shooting safety lies with the shooter, not DNR.
You can post no shooting all you want but people will continue to shoot. You have a much better chance of retraining them to shoot in a designated safe area and post it to pick up their shells and targets when they are done. The ban on shooting is not just safety, it is because a few shooters leave lots of trash. They shoot cans, bottles, TV’s, microwaves, etc and leave all the trash when they are done. This sort of behaviour is NOT acceptable.
Hen 9:28 am on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I hike extensively in the Chuckanut Mounatins. I go to this are because it is close to home and is a good place for rest and recreation…..to recharge after a time spent in the fast paced and noisy city. I like this area because there is no motorized use allowed except for the few roads in the Blanchard area. I have also Mountain Bike here. Motorized trail use leads to abuse and land damage. I would not and do not recreate on DNR land where the stench and obnoxious noise of ORV’s.
I see more and more gated roads leading to DNR land. I would like to go into these areas to gather firewood but I can understand the closures due to the abuses there such as abandonment of appliances, people changing oil and dumping on these lands. The ORV crowd seems to have no difficulty getting around these gates and add to that, no patrolling of these ares…..
Frank 9:12 pm on September 18, 2010 Permalink
My family and I have hiked in the Yacolt Burn area for many years and have seen the growth of illegal off-road trails, illegal, unsafe bridges built by off-roaders and trash thrown around. (Keystone or Bud Lite, anyone?) Seems to me that enccouraging more use of ORV’s in the forest is irresponsible on several levels and that the State should not be a party to it. There are much healthier, safer and less dammaging forms of recreation people can choose to do.
Paul Decker 10:56 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
I don’t get it. For millenia are species has traveled on the back of a horse or on foot in the back country. Many seem to consider these modes of travel a hardship these days. Is America afraid to sweat?
Paul D.
Paul 10:30 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
I agree with the guy that said he avoids DNR land… same for myself.
Too crawling with noisy, stinkin ORV’s, or the thigh-deep ruts from the effects of…
Thanks petrolium recreating “Americans”.
How PATRIOTIC is sending our national treasure to the Middle East, trashing the N Slope wilderness, the Caribbean etc… bad enough we do it for transportaion, but in the name of “fun” ?
But I’ll bet every one of them somehow thinks they are patriotic. More like delusional.
Just cuz technology exists, doesn’t mean it’s appropriate to use in our wet climate, mountainous terrain.
Can’t imagine any place a 4000 lb jeep can go offroad and not tear up the place (sand dunes Mattawa?)
And if the ORV doesn’t do huge damage immediately, the rains does the damage in their tracks afterwards.
At the least, keep ‘em on a few decomissioned roads, that were built for tires.
More appropriately, private ammusement parks.
shrubitup 8:32 am on September 19, 2010 Permalink
If you don:t like DNR lands then why do you find it necessary to come in here and lecture about how bad it is to use petroleum for both transportation and fun? Like it or not, petroleum use is not going away tomorrow, next year, or a decade from now.
Frank Knight 2:08 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I am planning to start converting fossil fuel powered vehicles into electric powered vehicles so hopefully my future generations can still enjoy off-road vehicles long after fossil fuels have been depleted and imagine there are plenty of other off-road enthusiasts that will look at alternative power for their machines also.
So… the bottom line is there is a vast variety of uses for DNR lands and a variety of beliefs amoungst the users of that land… please… lets all learn to respect the freedom of others and find some common ground to work with.
Almost everyone carries cellphones with cameras now-a-days so if you see someone destroying nature record it and report it to the authorities… video and pictures carry a lot of weight. Personally I think anyone with no respect for the land they recreate on should be tied to stumps to feed the lovely critters whose homes have been des-respected whether its a hiker leaving trash behind or a 4-wheeler tearing up virgin land… an equestrian poaching… the list could go on!
Respect for others and respect for nature are traights we all should have.
Peace
P.S. I know an 80-year old woman who loves to gripe about horse manure on trails and thinks the folks that ride should carry gunny-sacks to collect the manure into like the cities make folks scoop up dog manure from their dogs on sidewalks! LOL!
Big medicine 11:15 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
All state land should be open to wheelin’
Jim Scarborough 5:13 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I hike and x-c ski on DNR lands. Most often, my time is spent on Blanchard Mountain in north Skagit County, along with Sumas Mountain and Lake Whatcom in Whatcom County. Less often, I will visit Gibbs Lake and the Clearwater River in Jefferson County, Striped Peak and Murdock Beach in Clallam County, the Sultan River basin in Snohomish County, Stavis Creek in Kitsap County, various parcels in Pacific County, and the I-90 corridor in King County.
Bill Hasenjaeger 4:32 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
Part One
I’ve been recreating on public lands for about 50 years: hiking, back-packing, camping, rock climbing, off-road motorcycles, and mountain bikes. Today I mostly mountain bike, partly because of preference, partly because that’s all I can do for any good duration due to bad knees. And partly because my 14 year old daughter likes it and I can do it with her. 3 of my 4 older kids also mountain bike. Its a great family activity for us.
Part Two
We all also regularly do volunteer trail work. And given the seemingly continuous government agency budget crises this is an important aspect of creating and maintaining recreational access. One of the biggest assets the mountain biking community brings to this discussion is a very big and active volunteer base.
Managing user conflict often seems to be a critical driver in any of these public discussions. And is sometimes cited as a reason for draconian use restrictions in a given area. I disagree with this approach. I believe there is plenty of open space for all recreation users, and only by providing good access for all recreation groups, while acknowledging the potential for conflicts and educating about how to mitigate it can we all get the access we want. Give those who want solace places of solitude and those who want speed and excitement their equal opportunities and the user conflict will diminish (to nothing maybe).
Finally, I think an open area that is being recreated on regularly and positively managed by the user groups who are active in it becomes a positive place. Open areas with no or severely restricted access and little use become trash dumps and crime scenes. Active recreation areas are self-policed by the responsible groups who use them.
Barbara Thomas 3:55 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I am an equestrian and a member of the Washington Trail Riders Association and the Backcountry Horseman. I live within 30 minutes of the Tarbell system and have put a lot of effort and hours in trail maintenance and user meetings for the past several years.
I believe that there should be a way for all users to enjoy this area without infringing on the safety and enjoyability of others. I think there is work to be done to ensure that the non motorized trails are safe for hikers, bikers and the equestrian users. DNR has their work cut out for them to ensure that the new motorized trails proposed are planned and executed within this goal. I have seen the illegal use of the non-motorized trails increase the last 5 years.
shrubitup 7:48 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
Sounds like a good opportunity to provide motorized trails that are meaningful and incorporate the same challenges and rugged experiences everyone else wants. I suggest that we all share DNR land. If you require solace and isolation then head deep into the national forest. The DNR parcels are no doubt closer to the population but expecting them to be dead quiet to favor your use over others is selfish.
Butch O 11:34 am on September 19, 2010 Permalink
The fact of the matter is that once off road motorized use comes into an area the rest of us non motorized users are forced to leave because we can’t stand it and then the area becomes just a off road vehicle play ground similar to the landscape of the moon, full of illegal trails.
Jennifer 3:47 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I’m a hiker, and I love the peace and quiet of a walk through the woods on the weekends. However, my number one concern is habitat preservation, whether I’m allowed to use the land or not. It seems clear to me that motorized vehicles have a negative effect – though far less than a housing development, of course – on wild land. Obviously, balance is required, but I hope that preserving habitat for the wild creatures in our state is a priority.
shrubitup 7:44 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
Areas of Critical Environmental Concern, Wilderness Areas, Nat’l Parks, Natural Resource Areas, Green Belts, watersheds, roadless areas, Designated Critical Habitat areas, and even the general backcountry forest service parcel in an alpine setting already provide habitat preservation. Going after the few and very small ORV areas to provide habitat preservation is a bit single-sided.
Devon McNiel 8:38 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
Also, DNR’s purpose is to sell timber. The reason they have land is to cut trees down for profit. In Washington state the DNR has done a good job in not clearing everything and running out of trees to sell so it has been a much more sustainable business here than in other states. Off highway vehicle users just want to drive/ride around the trees and enjoy them. I dislike trails that go through clear cuts but it is part of recreating on DNR land, just like sometimes there is noise, be it OHVs or heavy equipment and chainsaws.
K.S.E. 12:06 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
Part One: I’ve been very impressed with the work of Washington State DNR. When I call or write for information, it is responded to in good time. The parks that I’ve gone to are very well taken care of. I like your use of volunteers.
When I was taking a class about the Northwest environment in my BA program at Antioch University, we went to several locations throughout the state that I believe are managed by the DNR including Mima Mounds. Since 2000, I have worked with a high school student run outdoor education program that utilizes the Environmental Learning Centers at Sun Lakes and Sequim Bay. Every fall, the high school marine science class goes on an Eastern Washington trip and camps at Sun Lakes. The facilities are always improving and I love Dry Falls area.
Personally and with my students, I hike at Tiger Mountain.
Part Two: I believe that your facilities have improved and been updated regularly. Looking at the map and brochure – I have much more exploring to do.
Eric Burr 11:18 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I avoid DNR lands, because I prefer peace and quiet.
William Crawley 10:23 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I am an OHV user and hiker who often visits Elbe Hills, Tahuya, Walker Valley, and Reiter before it was closed.
Even though I have only lived here for a few years I have witnessed dramatic reductions in OHV opportunities on DNR land. One of the most diverse properties – Reiter – has been completely closed with only a small portion scheduled to re-open to OHV use. Personally this is a huge loss as there were many incredible places with spectacular scenery and mining history where I would take visiting family and friends to show them what wonderful public resources we have. Now those will almost all be closed to OHV access.
As I learned more about the area I also learned about other recent closures such as P5000. All of this occurring while motorized recreation is increasing in popularity. More people recreating on fewer resources will end up hurting everybody.
Diane K 9:47 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid horseback rider and enjoy various areas, I agree to alot of what is stated here at least the ones I read. Bicyclist need to understand talking to the rider would really assist us in being able to control our horse and allow him to know that you are not a predator (i.e. cougar, bear, etc) that will eat him. Horses have a fight or flee attitude and just talking is a great way to help out. Also ORV users are getting quieter all the time; however, at one spot where I ride when encountered on the trails they are friendly and offer any assitance to be able to continue on their path as I continue on my path and when I pass I ask them to please wait until I get to a certain spot prior to starting their ORV so as to not spook my stock as I one time passed someone and was just about 4 steps away when they started their vehicle and my horse went straight up in the air and I came off and landed hard. Remember we all share the land and are out there doing what we love.
Frank Knight 12:11 pm on September 17, 2010 Permalink
Mutual respect for others and all things is always a good blessing. Cool post… thanks for sharing it!
Susan S 9:25 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I am a hiker who uses public lands, including DNR lands in the Yacolt Burn State Forest and the Columbia Hills for the past 30 years. In addition, I also have invested hundreds of volunteer hours in trail construction and trail maintenance on the Chinook Trail, which crosses the Yacolt Burn. The Yacolt Burn always has been beset by challenges due to its proximity to a large urban area, including unauthorized motorized trails, shooting and trash dumping. Public Lands Day clean up projects in recent years really have improved the appearance and presented a more welcoming environment for recreation users.
Suzi Parr 8:26 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I am also a BackCountry Horsemen member, primarily using the Yacolt Burn area in Clark County. We had a few work parties in the last few years that combined horse folks (BCHW and WTRA), mountain bikers, and ORVs. In a wonderful partnership, the ORVs brought in gravel to trails accessible to hikers, horses, and mountain bikers. They sped up a job that would have been very difficult without their assistance-for trail they don’t use. (I believe this was the Jones Creek trail riders group).
I’ve only lived in WA state for about 5 years, but have already seen and heard about changes going on, trails being closed, horse camps (among others) slated for closure or unsupported in terms of services. However, as urban areas grow, the population in general grows and more people want to enjoy the outdoors, the need for these services increases, while funding seems to decrease. Naturalyl the economic situation impacts gov’t but it also drives people to look for less expensive recreation than a trip to Hawaii for vacation. Go camping instead, which then increased the need for more services. Governments rely more and more on volunteers, and the same people can only do so much. I think our government is sadly lacking in the knowledge of how very important outdoor recreation is to its population, or chooses not to prioritize these activities.
Chuck Cubine 8:20 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
My kids and I backpack and ride offroad motorcycles. We used to ride at Reiter since it was the closest place to our home. We ride at Walker Valley more now. We Hike and hunt in many areas. Unlike most of the other hikers who don’t want to share the trails, I don’t mind sharing and see the value in experiencing cultures other than just my own. It’s too easy and selfish to say the lands are there for just one person or group, and that your experience should not be hindered or disturbed in any way by any other person or group (IE “I don’t like the noise they make”). Over the years there are fewer and fewer opportunities for ORV users. ORV trails are closed because of “over-use” which makes no sense whatsoever. Opening more areas to ORV use is the answer to over-use. Responsible ORV users do more trial maintenance than any other group and their efforts are rewarded with more closures. Every year there was a clean-up at Reiter organized by ORV users and attended by 100 or more people. I don’t understand the continued closures. I don’t understand the lack of funding when I pay for ORV tabs on all of my ORVs. I don’t have to pay anything to hike in and camp and the opportunities are abundant but I do have to pay for my ORV tabs and the I’m told the DNR doesn’t have the money to maintain areas for ORV use. I would like to see more trails made available for shared use (hikers, horseback and ORV). Let’s try sharing and be less selfish with our public lands.
Dave Jackson 8:18 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I’m primarily an equestrian user (that’s horseback rider to you city folks), but I agree with some of the comments about ORV use. They too need space to recreate. The dilemna we all face, is how to share space without infringing on each other’s rights, enjoyment, or safety. My greatest concern when I’m on my horse is having an irresponsible ATVer or bicyclist racing up on my horse and causing injury to any one or more of us. Most of the time, the ATVers slow down or shut down until I pass, which I appreciate greatly. A few in that group, like any other group, are rude or purposely try to scare my horse out from under me. These are the exceptions and not the norm. Bicyclists are actually, unbeknownst to most, worse. Not because they try to be or intend to be. Bicycles are quiet and fairly fast. It’s easy to believe that the quiet part would be good when coming in contact with a horse. But it’s not. Quiet and fast is what cougars are too. And like it or not, horses ain’t that bright. I actually have had more near injury wrecks because of an unsuspecting mountain biker than I have from a dirt biker because my horse just sees something coming up fast and didn’t hear it first. My recommendation is, and this goes for back packers too, just stop and talk. Say “Hi”, say somthing so the animal hears a human voice as you come up on them. They’re much less likely to try and jump over you or unload me onto the rocks.
This State is big enough for all of us if we work together, police our respective user groups, and just apply the old “do unto others” principle when we meet up with other users in the mulit-use areas.
Joe 8:13 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
When I was in my 20s I rode dirt bikes, then ATVs, then sand rails and now into Jeeps. I grew up around Spokane and now live near Poulsbo. I have used trails all across the state, but now favor Sadie Creek, Tahuya, and the area from Snoqualmie to Darland Mountain.
Over the years, I have noticed more gates being erected and closed. Parking and camping areas shut down. Trails being downgraded: Jeep to ATV to Dirt bike to hiking and then being closed. Tahuya had camps at Mission Creek trailhead, Sand Hill pit, Mission Creek bridge, Camp Pond, Goat Ranch Lake, Kamenga Canyon, Spillman, Tahuya River horse camp, Toonerville, and Elfendahl Pass. The only ones still open are Sand Hill pit, Elfendahl Pass and Mission Creek Trailhead. Spillman, Kamenga Canyon and Tahuya river are gated and rarely open. The trails to Toonerville were closed and obscured. There are now twice as many users and only three out of nine camps are still open. It is not unusual to be packed so tightly into Elfendahl Pass that the motorhome awning cannot be fully extended. I believe we need more space and more trails.
Herb Gerhardt 2:19 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
To clarify the camping oportunities in the Tahuya. Misssion Creek Trailhead never allows camping. It is a day use only area. The Tahuya River Horse camp is by reservations only which they start taking on Jan 1 and the entire year fills up within a few weeks. Check web site for reservation contact info. Spillman and Kammenga are gated and posted Day Use Only and camping is not permitted due to budget cuts. However on Memorial Day Weekend and Labor Day Weekend, the TR Horse Camp, Spillman and Kammenga gates are opened on the Wed before the holiday for open camping, first come, first served. I would suggest you complain to your State Legislators to restore the NOVA funds and have them force DNR to open up more camping opportunites. Of course they have to fund these opportunities too….. Also keep in mind that fires are only permitted in DNR provided steel fire rings. Rock fire rings are never allowed for fires. Please observe the rules, you are only hurting yourself with more restrictions when the rules are not followed. Especially the quiet times from 10 PM to 6 AM. When someone calls 911 due to parties after those hours, it will cause more camping restrictions….
Ryan Ojerio 8:13 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
I am a hiker and a mountain biker and I enjoy the quiet and solitude that can be found away from the Portland/Vancouver Metro area. But many of the popular trailheads in the Gorge, Mt. Hood and Gifford Pinchot National Forest are becoming increasingly crowded as our population expands. Parking is very hard to find and on sunny weekends you won’t find solitude on many of the regions best trails.
The Western Yacolt Burn State Forest has such great potential for recreation that is near to town. As gas prices are sure to go up to $4 or more in the coming decades, the opportunity for close-in recreation will become even more important.
Sadly, relatively few people hike in the area except for the very popular trails that lead up to the summit of Silver Star Mountain on adjacent Forest Service Land. Many hikers avoid the area just like people tend to avoid an abandoned alley way. The trails have been so degraded and abused, they simply aren’t enjoyable to walk on. As well I often her gunfire when I’m hiking in the area and its nerve racking. If I knew that it was coming from a safe shooting range, it would be different, but out there you never know. There is a sense of lawlessness and disregard for the environment that turns a lot of people off from an area that could be so much better.
Just because there aren’t more hikers speaking out for the Western Yacolt Burn, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a need for improvements to hiking in the area. Like a polluted stream that has no fish, if you get rid of the pollution, the fish will be able to come back. Non-motorized trails in the Western Yacolt Burn would be much more popular if illegal ORV incursions were stopped, the trails were restored, and target shooting was set up in safe areas or eliminated entirely.
shrubitup 7:33 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
So as our population expands lets just take away motorized trails in the Western Yacolt so you don’t hafta discover the primitive trails in the GPNF? Your tone hints at conversion of motorized to non-motorized to further your goal of single-user recreation. This is suggested by your discussion of illegal ORV incursions onto non-motorized.
Drive 30 minutes further into the GPNF. I bet you’ll find some “less popular” trail heads.
Alan 6:15 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
To all the folks who have posted about wanting to recreate without interference or noise from ORVs, all I can say is there very few legal ORV areas while there are many, many non-motorized recreation areas in Washington State. Since State and National Park lands, Wildlife Refuges, and all Wilderness areas are off-limits to ORV use, go there if you want to be free of contact with motorized recreationists. I think this State is large enough for all of us to have places to go to recreate in the outdoors.
Ryan Ojerio 8:29 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
Just because there is a shortage of legal places to ride ORVs on public lands doesn’t mean that public resources must be invested to create more. Our government should not be obligated to provide everything that people want. The purpose of government is to keep our nation safe and secure; which to me means national defense, protection from pollution, promotion of public health and a functioning economy.
I believe that promoting walking, hiking and bicycling are a very cost effective way to counter our current obesity epidemic, decrease heart disease, and improve people’s mental health. Public dollars spent on non-motorized trails are a good use of our taxpayers dollars because it is a good investment in public health in addition to generating local and regional economic activity.
Providing non-motorized trails is like healthy school lunches. On the other hand I view motorized recreation the same way that I view bacon. I have a dual sport motorcycle and love to ride all day exploring old logging roads and seeing where they take me. But I know that a day on the motorcycle isn’t nearly as good for me or the environment as a day spent hiking. If I can carpool or take public transit to a trailhead, even better for reducing pollution. I love bacon, but I don’t eat it nearly as much as I eat healthier foods.
So in conclusion, I don’t think it is the government’s role to provide recreation that is simply popular. Just because a lot of people are buying ORV’s doesn’t mean that the DNR should use resources (land and money) to meet that desire. (However, I think it is perfectly okay to use gas-tax revenue and user fees paid by ORV users for ORV recreation.)
Jakob 9:15 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
But I enjoy bacon
I’d rather not be told what is good or not for me.
I disagree that government should stay out of it. Government HAS been staying out of motorized recreation, except for closures and look where it has brought us? DNR has said it themselves, they fell behind the curve in regards to keeping up with ORV use and recreation.
Also, almost all ORV facilities that have been built were done so using NOVA funding. This was the gas-tax refund, turn grant system that ORV users pay into. The ORV funding system used to be self-sustainable until state parks rallied to have it allocated to them.
DNR is tasked to provide recreation opportunities for the public on public land. And they should do so. Again, I think non-motorized use has a much larger big scale impact on resources than Motorized use, because of the sheer miles of trail out there. Sure, ORV use has a bigger micro scale impact, but the amount of trails pales in comparison to what non-motorized users have.
Bottom Line: If DNR does not provide opportunities for motorized recreation, users will create the opportunity themselves. And I’m pretty sure thats not what the non-motorized community wants to see.
shrubitup 7:28 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
You advocate public transit to trail heads? Uhm, shouldn’t we solve transit issues in urban areas first rather than thinking how pollution free it would be to take a few hundred vehicles off the road? This state cannot agree on public transit policy which is unfortunate since that is where the bulk of our air quality impacts come from (not the few hundred vehicles transiting to a trail head).
Michele c. 8:25 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I hike the Snoqualmie Pass frequently – Mt. Si, Tiger, Granite, other peaks. Middle Fork. I love the quiet, I love being able to volunteer for WTA, which is a national treasure, an organization that lets people get out in the woods easily, on repaired and decent trails. And I also think ORV’s should have some space, but not the majority of the available space. ORV’s are a minority when it comes to recreating, but there are those in their ranks who inflict damage beyond measure. They tend to be angry and aggressive at public meetings, and their aggression when taken out in the woods does extraordinary damage. They should be putin areas which can be regulated, policed, and the regulations enforced.
shrubitup 7:21 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
We’re already “put” in areas that are regulated, policed, and enforced. OK, the enforcement has become lax recently. That is because of the money grab WA state did when they moved the NOVA funds over to State Parks which don’t allow for non-winter motorized recreation. That money was used for enforcement and was generated by the actual user.
If your user generated fees were misappropriated, trails closed, license plates taken away, and other general malice brought upon you as a recreation group – you wouldn’t be too cheerful at public meetings either. That said, myself and many others can discuss the matter rationally and not give you the impression of an aggressive forest destroying beast.
Matt Mead 8:09 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I am a snowmobiler, ATVer and 4×4 owner. I enjoy recreating on DNR and National Forest lands here in the Yakima area as well as most other areas across the state. I appreciate the numerous green dot roads open to ATV travel.
Gail 7:31 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
We ride horses, hike, orv, camp, hunt, fish and kayak on many areas of Public Land. Depending on which toy we are using depends on where we go. We have decided as a family that instead of spending our money going to bars, we would rather go outside and play. We appreciate all the different areas we in which we are allowed to recreate. My one wish is that there would be 1 permit that would allow us to use all the areas instead of having one permit for this area and a different permit for another area. I would gladly pay more for 1 permit to cover it all. It is many times difficult to know which permit is needed for which area. A single permit would be much simpler even if it costs more. Or even keep the individual permits but have 1 super permit that would work anywhere.
jessica mcnamara 7:00 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I’ve spent many good hours walking through some of the last old groves of trees on the Loomis Forest before they were clearcut. The Chopaka Mt. area and the NAP there are also favorite hikes and give some breathtaking views of the Pasayten mts. My family also used to camp in several of the North Fork Toats campgrounds and hike the surrounding areas. There are unfortunately too few actual hiking and horseback trails, but the old logging roads do serve that purpose. But these one has to share with the noisy ORV’s which somewhat changes what should be an “away from it all” experience to something less enjoyable. There are plenty of main roads for the ORVS and they should be happy to stay on those and leave the backcountry to those who truly appreciate it. for the peace and quiet and sense of wildness. Also would make it easier and less disruptive on the wildlife. Needless to say, hunters also love the Loomis. It does have something for everyone, and we hope it stays that way.
shrubitup 7:14 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
I am a dirt biker and I like backcountry too. You don’t own it; rather the public does. You can recreate in wilderness, roadless, and national parks but I cannot unless I leave the dirt bike at home. Not much sound back in those areas.
Skip L 6:49 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I’ve ridden most of my adult life, respecting both private property and trail status signage. To my dismay, I’ve watched a plethora of trails be closed or designated to an alternate (non-ORV) use in spite of the need for PUBLIC use of the lands. The ORV & single track clubs do trail restoration work every year, thereby keeping the cost of maintaining the trails to a minimum.
Let’s not watch Washington Public lands become single-use lands and let’s not see our ORV fees being used for purposes other than that for which they are earmarked.
Likewise, lets not penalize the many for the actions of the few wrong-doers. Yes, our public lands are precious but they are for the benefit of ALL, not just those with the lowest impact footprint.
James M 5:44 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I’m mostly a weekend day-hiker or three day backpacker and don’t mind sharing the trails with horses. Repetitive strings of bikers are problematic and noisy ORV’s are horrific. I get out for the beauty, peace, and quiet. In the winter I snow shoe and camp; again, the noise of snow mobiles is very disturbing. It seems there’s enough land for areas set aside for hikers and horses with separate areas for bikes and motorized vehicles.
shrubitup 7:11 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
There’s always the Nat’l Parks (three in close proximity) or designated wilderness areas. No motorized there. Sounds like a good place for you to go hike and enjoy a sound-free experience.
Grant Collins 5:23 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
My family uses the trail systems for OTV use and the woods for hunting.
The amount of trails and camping spots have been slowly closed down and continue to shrink.
Bev Ryan 4:09 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
Equestrian, equestrian endurance/long distance riding, hiking, biking and nature observer. I enjoy the quiet and wild outdoors.
What has changed, the number of and diversity of users.
Bev Ryan 4:12 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
Mostly in the West Yacolt Burn area
Liann 4:01 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I enjoy hiking, mostly in the Central WA Cascades. I’d like to see more hiking trails and fewer ORV use on logging roads.
shrubitup 7:09 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
Most logging roads prohibit ORV use. Not sure of your basis for complaint? Are you having a hard time seriously finding hiking trails in Central WA? My FS map shows lots of red and few green trails.
Herb Gerhardt 3:55 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I have recreated on DNR lands for over 30 years mainly in the Tahuya, Green Mtn and Hood Canal State Forests but have also been in many other DNR areas hiking, camping, fishing and hunting.
I am not an ORV’er but respect their need and desire to also recreate in our forests. I am a Forest Watch Volunteer and do my best to make sure that all the users rights are protected. The ORV users have a much greater impact on the lands and timber production than the non-motorized users, so they must keep within their designated trails and boudaries. 99+% follow all the rules but those very few who just don’t care, ruin it for everyone…..
Over the years, DNR lands have become very restrictive. I still remember when there were no gates and no restrictions on where an ORV could go but that was also a time when there were very few ORV users and they did not have much of an impact. Garbage dumping and pouching have always been a problem and continue to be a problem.
Camping has especially been hit hard. It used to be you could camp anywhere you could find a wide enough area, then they created designated camping areas. Since it was almost impossible to control the use of these campgrounds, many have been closed and reverted back to nature, others were gated and signed for Day Use Only. This is very unfortunate as there are many people that love to camp in the woods not a State Park. DNR needs to work on expanding the camping opportunities on DNR lands…..
Susan Kay 3:54 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
My husband and I hike frequently on DNR lands on Vashon island where we live and in many areas of the northwest and southwest that we visit. We enjoy communing with nature without the company of motorized vehicles, unfortunately we find the lovely sound of engines almost everywhere we go and occasionally almost get wiped out when one comes our way down a path with bad visability. Why we need to use public land for people to drive a vehicle on when we spend a large share of our time driving and communing with vehicles is beyond me. Perhaps its time we all learned to enjoy ourselves on our own two legs instead of sitting on metal and wheels. All those beer guts and future health problems from not enough physical activity might just disappear. Maybe health insurance premiums would go down along with it. I opt for no ORV use on any public land. Thank you
Jakob P 5:35 am on September 17, 2010 Permalink
This is primarily a consequence of the non-motorized community going after established ORV areas. In the NW region, there used to be 4 well established areas: P5000, NF, Reiter, and Walker. This covered about 200 miles of trail. Now there are over 30 areas that have dispersed ORV use because of the actions to close these established, but not managed areas. Because funding is a problem, Walker Valley is the only ORV park in the NW region, which is about 30 miles of trail, 4miles which are for 4x4s.
If the non-motorized community wants to see ORVs off their trails, they need to support ORV parks or areas that meet the need. The view that ORV use should be banned from all public lands is unreasonable and will only lead to more rampant ORV use on non-motorized trails.
FYI: there are over 2400 MILES of hiking and other non-motorized trail within the NW region for the FS, DNR, and parks (according to the WTA website). The view that ORVs dot the landscape and hiking is limited is totally false. There are 30 miles of recognized ORV trail.
Hiking and non-motorized use has a much larger impact over the region as a whole than ORV use.
shrubitup 7:05 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
Additionally, you believe that motorized use is for fat gut beer belly types. We’ll provide the trail bike and you’ll be surprised that you’re working up a sweat and sore from head to toe the next day if you can keep up with experienced riders even.
Why so absolute? Why should public land only cater to you and your interests and the hell with everyone else?
Rich Draves 3:47 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I enjoy hiking, backcountry/cross-country skiing, and climbing in our state’s wild places.
Larry 3:29 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I am 67 and yearn for those days decades ago where we would just drive the roads through DNR land for no other purpose than just enjoying being in the woods. During grouse season we would have a shotgun in the car. We didn’t trash any place and wouldn’t expect to see trash either. Now we can only go to the woods when and where agencies designate we go. Grandkids are growing up learning that it’s agencies that think for us and tell us where it is “fun” to go ‘recreate’. Let’s get a plan that makes it painful to the trash slobs and we’ll find there is solitude in the woods still. The trashers are the ones that can’t think for themselves so lets make them pay at a level that will educate them. The best answer for everyone is it’s like, ” politics is all about the economy stupid”, so expanded DNR land use is, “all about the enforcement stupid”. It’s about time natural resource enforcement take a lead in supporting those of us that respect what we use and just want more space to teach grandkids about the woods.
colby 3:21 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I recently moved to wa so I honestly can’t comment on any specific sites, but I can say I am looking forward to exploring dnr lands by foot enjoying nature and the peace and quiet of nature…where there are hopefully no ORVS
shrubitup 7:01 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
80% of all trails in WA are non-motorized. You should have no trouble seeking out your sound-free trails.
Frank Backus 3:11 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I am a hiker and I hike weekly with my 10 person hiking group. We hike all over western Washington.
Paul Sims 1:15 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
An inquiry, this forum seems to have been widely advertised to the ORV and Back Country Horsemen contingent, but NONE of the Hunting, Fishing and Hiking Clubs in my area even knew DNR had a dailey/weekly forum. This has been a constant issue since Goldmark took office, DNR needs to be more transparent and less adversarial to traditional users.
Neil Stamp 1:50 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
There is a lot of volunteer involvement by the ORV, Horseman, Mtn Bike communities and most sign up for the newsletter updates and blogs like this:
http://washingtondnr.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/dnr-forum-recreation-on-dnr-managed-lands-%E2%80%94-%E2%80%9Cconversation-starters%E2%80%9D/
protected static 3:21 pm on September 16, 2010 Permalink
Paul, I found out about it through the DNR’s Twitter feed, http://twitter.com/waDNR
Ann 2:44 pm on September 19, 2010 Permalink
I didn’t know either until I signed up for the DNR blog — which I also didn’t know about until I was browsing their website… I don’t know if it was really “advertised” anywhere.
Jim Anderson 11:53 am on September 16, 2010 Permalink
I’m a member of Back Country Horsemen of Washington. I use the Yacolt Burn State Forest and the Nesters Peak and Buck Creek Trail. My #1 activity is of course horse back riding with my wife and friends. I also hunt both with guns and archery. We are very active in the maintenance of the trails and facilities in these areas. I have met and shared these trails with all users without to much negativity. We have all worked shoulder to shoulder to help make these trails better.
Recreation has changed drasticly from back in the sixties when I first started hunting in the Yacolt burn. Everything was wide open then. There was no such thing as a closed road or trail. The only thing that closed them was they became impassable for vehicles. It was the early seventies before the Jones Cr. motorized trail system was built and some areas made off limits for motorized use. It was then that the Tarbell Trail and the Three Corner Rock trail was built for nonmotorized use also. DNR did all of the planning, building and maintenance of the trails. Now user groups and volunteers are closly involved in all aspects the recreation program.
Ted Coombs 9:57 pm on September 15, 2010 Permalink
Again I am late, but I am here with something to say. I am currently a 4×4 user, and DNR Volunteer, mostly at Reiter Foothills and Walker Valley now and again, after being away from the 4×4 hobby for a good number of years. Also in the past I have used DNR Shorelines for access for Scuba Diving activities and Forested Uplands for hunting. Today I only 4×4 and Volunteer my time where I see it doing some good for the ORV users of the area.
The biggest change that occurred during the years I was away form 4×4 recreation, is the reduction in legally accessible trail mileage. DNR I believe should inventory all of their Trust Lands for all possible sites that could be used for ORV Activities and then work with the Volunteers and Users Groups to develop more ORV Trails of all types as we are very lacking in that area and it is only going to grow worst in the years to come unless we take action now.
Gayle 6:13 pm on September 15, 2010 Permalink
My family hikes, camps, and does cross country skiing. We only frequent areas that prohibit motorized activities if we can help it.
shrubitup 6:57 am on September 18, 2010 Permalink
Shouldn’t be too hard. 80% of trails are off limits to motorized recreation.
Alan Wesley 4:49 pm on September 15, 2010 Permalink
I primarily use DNR lands for 4×4 trail running and camping, with some hiking as well. All ORV use in Washington State (including 4×4) have “capacity issues,” that is, there are not enough ORV areas in the State to handle all the potential users. Illegal off-road trails exist because of an un-met need for more miles of trails, more challenging trails, etc.
Kenny S 12:43 pm on September 15, 2010 Permalink
I too enjoy responsible target shooting in outdoor areas, and I also wish that there were more areas available to the public, especially near King County. It is very disappointing to see trash left by other people who are too lazy to be responsible, and it is this sort of activity that will get target shooting banned. I think some sort of adopt-a-site as suggested previously is a great idea.
Cindy Lucas 11:27 am on September 15, 2010 Permalink
My husband and I horseback ride. We live in Whatcom County and ride near Saxon, Les Hilde as well as several trips to Capitol Forest, Teanaway and other areas around the state. We find sharing the trail with hikers and bikers to be a positive experience usually, but motorixed vehicles are too frightening. We are members of Back Country Horsemen
shrubitup 10:07 pm on September 15, 2010 Permalink
I suggest you ride trails that preclude access to motorized use then. Nearly 80% of all trails in WA state prohibit motorized use.
Tootie 8:02 am on September 15, 2010 Permalink
I ride my horse in Capital Forest, and numerous other DNR managed land. I can’t comment on how DNR managed land has changed as I have only been using them for 8 or 9 years.
Angela M 7:20 am on September 15, 2010 Permalink
My family uses DNR managed lands (western and eastern Washington) about every other weekend during the year hiking, snowshoeing, x-country skiing, swimming, camping, fishing and backpacking. We frequent trails that serve non-motorized activities, avoiding areas with motor bikes, snowmobiles, etc.
John 10:02 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I’ve hiked, hunted, fished, and camped on DNR land (and on federal land as well). I’m also a motorcyclist.
If funding really IS the reason that so many OHV trails have been closed, then why not offer a special trail permit/license, sell it for $25 a year, and allow anyone with that license to ride identified special trails? Copy the program the DOT uses and let users ‘buy’ a sign with their name and contact info on it if they agree to spend a certain amount of time volunteering to maintain that trail section. Use the funds generated by the special trails permit/license to build and maintain the new trails (along with help from volunteers, either individuals or clubs), and buy trail cameras that capture all users of the trail, and if you see a large number of unauthorized users then focus enforcement on fining people who use the trail without the permit… and make the fine a big one ($200). Also, create a ‘hotline’ number and email address where people can send in photos of trail violators.
You can use the same principle to fund new mountain bike trails, etc. In short, let the users have some skin in the game so they will have a vested interest in acting responsibly AND policing the trail system. Anyone who can afford to use the trails can afford the $25 annual fee.
All of the problems that people have listed above can be solved with a little creativity. And yes, I’d buy a permit online even though I might only use it a few times a year.
shrubitup 10:04 pm on September 15, 2010 Permalink
Believe it or not, this system already exists. Its called ORV tabs. The money collected went to build, maintain, and educate/enforce rules to trail users. This system was put in place in the 1970s. Recently the legislature voted to divert the funds from the NOVA account and use them to pay State Parks salaries. So, while a good idea – when the state runs out of general funds they come looking for purpose dedicated funds like these to pay salaries instead.
Also a large portion of gas tax refunds fueled this account. Learn more about it here: http://documents.clubexpress.com/documents.ashx?key=%2fanCSlpDdPJhQ3zBnMuKFgR%2bnnbSL%2bNvejQFoFia0RMCpsQGWOQLYYXt4w2C%2ffcw
mike w 9:43 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I am a 4×4 guy who USED to go to reiter every other if not every weekend for years. I can remember being up there when I was 12 13 years old I’m now 29. As with most of the people that I used to wheel with we are tired of “doing our part” only to get shut out of areas. Why do we want to help anymore ? We do clean ups, We help at trail restorations, We help with cleaning up hiking trails, Motorcycle trails whatever. But in the end all we end up getting is the shaft, told one thing and get another. I personally am tired of helping and having the preverbial “carrot on the string” being dangled in front of us either DO WHAT YOU SAY OR STOP SAYING IT.
Lynn 9:28 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I ride horses on Stewart Mountain, Heady Road, and will be going to Les Hilde and other trails as I find out where they are. I am a member of Back Country Horsemen, who do many hours;, make that thousands of hours, of upkeep and repair on trails all over the U.S.
Ken O. 8:15 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
My 12yo son and I have ridden Walker valley almost every weekend for the last two yrs.,the big problem as we see it is the closing of Reiter Pit down south. It’s very apparent that the extra traffic has put years of wear on the trail system in a very short period of time. When do you plan on reopening an alternative ORV area?
dan b 8:03 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I ride a trail motorcycle at Tahuya and have been to Walker and Reiter before its closure. I do some hiking on DNR lands as well. I participate in club enduro events at Tahuya and am concerned that those events are endangered due to a lack of funding. I voice my opinion when I can to Olympia that the DNR needs the NOVA funds that were taken to continue supporting recreation on their (our) lands.
Frank Knight 7:44 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I have been a 4×4 enthusiast since 1978… in those days it was rare to see a gate on any of the awesome roads around Skagit County and it hurts to only recall those places in my mind and tell younger generations about them rather than being able to take them there to build their own memories.
There are hardly any places to go anymore and the places folks of us in east Skagit use that are still open are places we try to guard with secrecy because of people who literally trash these areas with no cares about the messes they leave. Every outing we have had over the last 10-years include bringing numerous bags of garbage out that careless folks have left behind… we do this in hopes that the areas we enjoy will be there for future generations to enjoy.
There definitely needs to be more managed 4×4 recreation areas and I know there would be no shortage of citizens who would volunteer time to see them come to be.
I have an extremely modified Jeep with over $30K in fabrication work done to it and visited Walker Valley this Summer and couldn’t get out of there quick enough! There musta’ been a kabillion rigs/bikes/quads everywhere… reminded me of downtown Seattle traffic… that was a sure sign that more land for 4×4 use is needed. I don’t know if its always like that but don’t plan on going back for a long time and if I do… I’ll make it a Winter run in hopes of having room to play.
Please try to open more areas in NW Washington for 4×4 recreation use!
Peace
Janet B. 7:37 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I love to hike Rattlesnake Mtn. The revamping of the trail several years ago was fantastic. This is a trail I can use even in the winter and very close to my home in Sammamish. It’s gentle enough that as I age, it will still be doable. Wonderful scenery. One concern I have is that I sometimes see mountain bikers on the trail which is unnerving when you don’t expect them to be there. Hopefuly they are just pushing their bikes up to get to an area on the west side off the hiking trail that is used for mountain biking. But I have on occasion seen them riding down the hiking trail. Tiger Mtn. is even closer to my home and another spot where I spend alot of time in the winter. Love the new trail leading from the lower to upper parking lot..much safer than walking the road. Wish the road could be maintained better. The pot holes get pretty bad at times.
Joan Fleming 7:35 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I am a horseback rider and ride the Capitol Forest and Elbe Hills DNR trails. These are wonderful trails that we are very lucky to have. In Capitol Forest, we share trails with many mountain bikers who I find very friendly. Meeting up on the trails when they are coming downhill can be a surprise at times, but they try so hard to stop that I have often seen them go over their handle bars! It seems like DNR has been using volunteers with trail maintenance much more than in the past and this I think brings the agency together with the users as friends working together on a common goal. We want trails and they don’t have the money to do them without our help. I also appreciate the DNR policy that requires logging companies to bring trails damaged in their operations back to the way they found them. This really limits the logging impact to users and makes it more palatable – especially when the views of the various mountains in our area are opened up for us to admire for years to come.
Gerry Hodge 6:51 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I use Cypress/Lummi/Strawberry. We kayak year round and do not like the limited summer openings on any of these properties.
t. oly 6:33 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I prefer non-motorized activities – hiking and bird watching for example. Often in Capitol Forest. I have seen lots of damage due to motorized activity + lots of noise from improperly muffled machines. It has a negative impact on the experience when off-trail and noisy riding occurs. While some riders are considerate, many are not. During times of the year when the motorized activities are clearly not allowed, there are often motorized riders using the trails.
I’d like to see “leave no trace” better applied by all users and better legal enforcement of the regs. As others have commented, some of the activities related to horse and hiking activities also have impacts. I think that we have lost track of the “big picture” and have more users who behave as it they are the only users and have no impacts.
While I am commenting, illegal use of guns in the Capitol Forest makes it worrisome to hike there at times. I have come across folks shooting across trails and too close to houses that are not visible, but within shooting distance.
Cathy 3:17 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
As a sea kayaker I use the DNR campsite quite a bit but I like to do most of my camping off season in the fall, winter, and spring. Unfortunately with the closure of Strawberry Island and Cypress Island closing early in the year I am unable to use these sites.
Steve Morse 2:19 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
As a sea kayaker, I think it is important to maintain campsite on DNR properties in the San Juan for a long season. Many kayaker like to camp well outside of the summer season.
Loren D. 1:52 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
My family (w/ leashed dog) spends between 20 and 30 days a year hiking, snowshoeing, swimming, camping and backpacking in DNR managed lands (mostly in Western Washington and the Western half of the Eastern Wash areas). We prefer to frequent trails that serve hikers, mountain bikers and horses, avoiding areas with much noise or motorized traffic.
Fran 1:18 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
We try to ride all year round. We like riding at Stewart Mountain, Blanchard, Saxon, Heady trails. We belong to the Backcountry Horsemen of Washington State and enjoy riding on DNR land and hope we can continue for many years. We make sure we volunteer each year helping cleaning and maintaining trails to make sure they will remain open for many years to come. We work closely with DNR, Forest Service. Many of our friends also ride at Les Hilde-Harry Osborn trails. We hope to ride on DNR land in Eastern Washington this coming year so looking forward to enjoying more trails. Each time we go riding, we really enjoy being out in the woods, enjoying the quietness and relaxing. On some trails there are no paperwork to sign in to show DNR that the trails are being used by equestrians. We have heard that several trails have been closed due to lack of funding and no interest. Maybe DNR should work closely with the different groups on finding ways to keep trails open.
Jacqeline Angermeir 12:57 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I ride horses on DNR land in Capital Forest and at the Tunerville Horse camp in Naselle. I notice that in the past few years that DNR needs more volunteer help to keep the trails open. They are seldom seen in the campgrounds
Tami 10:02 am on September 14, 2010 Permalink
Our equestrian club rides most all DNR lands throughout the year, Capitol Forest, Saraha Creek, Nicholson System in Elbe, Rock Creek, Les Hilde, and Green Mountain. We appreciate every forest and campground. I would like to commend DNR for working with different user groups to allow volunteer efforts to work to keep these public lands open and available. DNR Staff has been very helpful in organizing and permitting events throughout the state. As a member of multiple user groups, the organization, the permitting, and the allowance of volunteer work to keep the forests open is of high importance.
Janet A 9:37 am on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I am a horseback rider and I like riding at Green Mountain, Tahuya, Sahara Creek (Elbe Hills), Capitol Forest and some local DNR owned land near my home.
Over the years I have seen these lands become vandalized, littered and other criminal activities causing complete closures or reduced access. I have also seen the various user groups work very hard to repair the damages.
I have very much respect for the people who give of their time in trying to maintain these lands.
Chuck C 7:53 am on September 14, 2010 Permalink
My family and I ride quads and/or snowmobiles almost every month throughout the year on DNR and Forest Service recreation area lands. We ride throughout WA and OR but mostly near our home in Cle Elum (Kittitas County). As a retiree, I tremendously value the time I get to spend with my kids and grandkids being responsible users of our public lands. We spend significant funds to support these activities.
These same type of recreation activities are a critical source of financial support for our local business community in Kittitas County from people all over WA and OR.
We strongly support adding additional areas for recreational use of quads and snowmobiles as well as improving the existing areas.
Marko 7:01 am on September 14, 2010 Permalink
Thanks to the DNR for hosting the forum and soliciting input for future use of DNR land. I am most avidly a mt. biker but also hike, kayak, fish, camp, photography etc. What I think is important to keep in mind is that many users have a primary use but are actually do more than one sport. Our group (mt. bkers) would like to see the opportunity to expand and build a range of trails that includes purpose built trails advanced mt. bike trails as well as traditionally single track. We have a large, active and experienced volunteer base. We can help! We just need a good project.
I would also agree with the other comments that the mt. bike community is VERY much under served on DNR lands and public land in general. While many other user groups have specific areas and substantial funding designated to them-equestrian corrals, ORV parks, kayak launches, sno parks and boating facilities etc. Mt. Bikers ore one of the largest user groups in our state (and nationwide), and yet there is no specific funding designated to this continually growing, healthy and low impact sport.
Thank you,
Mark
Tootie 6:58 am on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I ride 100s of miles on my horse. As far a how it has changed over the years I can’t comment, as I have only used the lands for 8 years.
Joe Hawkins 10:33 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Again I’ll mention what I call the funneling effect.
Every year there are more people in Washington due to either people having babies or people moving here from other places.
More people means that there will be more users competing for the same spot of land.
Close off areas of land for motorized use and guess what – that causes people who want to follow the rules to funnel into smaller and small areas of land.
More people, more usage, smaller amounts of land, more users, less land, that gets torn up pretty quick.
The DNR should be opening up more land to motorized usage, not closing areas down.
Further, the DNR should be forcing logging companies that lease DNR land or that use DNR land as an easement to open that land up to motorized usage as long as it does not interfere with the logging companies ability to make money or becomes a real safety issue.
Byron Stuck 10:18 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I’m a devoted single track rider and spend most of my time on either USFS trails or private land. When I do play on DNR land it’s in Tahuya or perhaps Capitol Forest. I’m concerned that the contributions of many responsible citizens were stolen this past year when the NOVA funds were sent to bail out the State Parks. There are many projects at DNR sites, Reiter Forest, for one, which are now not going to see funding until there’s a significant turnaround in funds available. I’m also concerned that the planning process for Reiter Forest was seriously flawed when acreage was artificially constrained at the outset and the remaining solutions available are very small compared to the original opportunity presented. There’s a lot of good volunteer work invested there but the return on investment for single track users and likely ATV users will be very poor. All that said, I appreciate opportunities like this to use new communication forms and forums to gather input, allow users to express themselves and save having to travel to meetings. Thanks for opening this up and please keep an ongoing presence like this, not a week of blogging …
Mike Lewis 10:12 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an ORV user (motorcycle) I used to frequent Reiter as that was closest to Bellevue/Eastside area, now use Walker ORV and eastern WA forest locations. There is simply not enough west side riding opportunities. It takes funding to maintain these areas (and volunteers), but obviously the ORV funding is getting redirected and that has to get fixed. People will pay to play, but not if the pay does not go to support the intended purpose (maintenance). Due the steepness and wet conditions on the wet side here, it takes professional help and that costs. We need to fix the funding problem and let the offroad community (hikers/horseman/bikers/motorcyclists/4WD/ATV) help pay for the chosen sport as many used to, are doing, or thought they were until recent times.
Indirectly the DNR may be able to help with land leases to create off-road sport riding tracks (Donhill MT bike, motorcycle, ATV). The racing types would have track type facilities to use then and take pressure off the multi-use and ORV trail system if they had a closer place to go. The current climate prevents opening facilities on private lands that are available nearby.
What has changed the most is closure of available areas (I include non-DNR lands as well here, maybe more so which puts pressure on DNR lands usage), often I think due to trash dumpers and meth labs. Most of these areas I believe can be legally re-opened to bikers, motorcyclists, horses and hikers since they are not likely to dump refrigerators and car hulks or transport materials for labs too far on foot or a bike. The 4WD system is too little to support the population as others have mentioned.
I beleive in BC, the private forest lands are sold/leased with the responsibility to provide for recreational use when safe to do so. On Vancouver Island the timber companies are required to build campsites and maintain access for example. Most of thelands they harvest are to serve the people, logging is only one usage and a privilge. DNR may be able to start this policy when negotiating land swaps and acquisitions and inter-working with the forest service.
Jim Putman 9:49 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Just to add this note. 4X4 trails are the only true multiple use trails in the forest. They are usable and used by all of the other users out there (hikers, Mt bikers, Horseman and even runners)
Jim Putman 9:44 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
4X4. As many above have said there simply isn’t enough trail mileage to support the number of users in our sport. Even just 10 years ago we had 10 times the amount of trails that we do today. Meanwhile the population has grown and the popularity of the sport has risen dramatically. The DNR needs to find the way to open up(reopen) more of the lands that it manages for us to us. Ignoring the problem or caving in to anti access groups is only going to compound the problem of illegal use. Expanding the areas that already exist would seem like a good start. (Walker valley, Reiter, Tahuya,Elbe hills, Sadie creek,) These are all areas that the DNR already manages for ORV use. It only makes sense to expand these trail systems to accommodate the growing number of users wanting a legal place to play and enjoy the outdoors.
Jim Putman Region 2 landmatters dir. Pacific Northwest 4 Wheel Drive Association
Mitch 9:44 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My activities on DNR land involve dirtbiking, mountain biking and hiking. I like to recreate in areas designated for dirtbiking and mainly in southern Washington which is closer to home.
Over the years the available trails have been reduced and the various users have become less tolerant of each other. The lack of tolerance between the user groups is mainly expressed and fueled on the internet. Some of this behavior transfers to the trails when one group encounters another. As a responsible dirtbike rider I participate in volunteer trail maintenance, don’t litter, shut my bike off as soon as I see a horse rider, give the right of way to mountain bikers and hikers, say hello to everyone and get a positive response most of the time but not always. I believe there are outstanding folks in each of the user groups and a few bad apples in each. Each group seems to want to blame the bad apples for the decline in available trails which may be the case. As available trails are reduced the responsible users will disappear and the irresponsible user will prevail. Hopefully this won’t be the situation.
Joe 9:16 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an offroad motorcycle rider and am one of the many volunteers who help maintain and keep open trails and access to them. it is too bad that reiter trails has been reduced in size so much as the old acreage was many times larger and this smaller area will put a lot of strain on the system. also, we need to be able to “cut” in true singletrack at Capitol so all ORV user groups can be served. currently, most of Capitol trails have been widened their entire length so quads can access the system. i have no problem sharing these trails ( originally all singletrack) but like tahuya, there is an opportunity to add a large amount of singletrack only so their is less danger of quad vs cycle collisions ( quad usually wins). we need more trail mileage for sure for ORV. currently hiker only public land in WA ( state and federal) equals 92 percent of the available acreage with the remaining 8% for ORV and yet the hikers STILL rant about needing peace and quiet and want all of it to themselves of course.
Marc T 9:07 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid off-road motorcyclist, fisherman and hunter. I also enjoy hiking. In this state, there are more than enough DNR managed areas for me to enjoy fishing, hunting and hiking. What is sorely lacking are areas for off-road motorcycling.
The DNR land I ride off-road motorcycles at are Tahuya, Walker Valley and at one time Reiter. These are the same areas I rode over 25 years ago. With the recent loss of off-road motorcycling at Reiter, Straddleline, NF and P5000, the off-road motorcyclists in this state are getting squeezed into smaller areas. We have less area to ride, yet there are tremendously more off-road motorcyclists here. than ever before. Why is there such an inequity to the off-road motorcyclists when this user group has been self funding riding areas for over 30 years?
Thee Will 8:58 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I ride, hunt, wheel, fish, and hike all over WA, but live closest to Capitol Forest.
One of the problems I see is an increasing population of ORV users, and a decreasing amount of legal ORV recreation areas. Most ORV users wheel or ride on a weekly basis, so the closure of popular areas (Reiter) increases the strain and impact on areas that remain open (Walker). This also increases the tendency for enthusiasts to engage in illegal wheeling and riding.
Glen M. 8:50 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I hike and climb, but, mainly, trail run, the trails of western Washington. I’ve met hikers, runners, horse riders, mountain bikers, and a few motor bikers on trails. Generally, everyone is decent and respectful.
I’m all for more protected areas, meaning, among other things, more roadless areas and wilderness areas. That said, I recognize the need for legal areas for motorized vehicle play. There are huge areas of lowland forest, most of it logged at least once, that could be opened to vehicle traffic, as well as foot and horse traffic. I’d say, anything is better than more suburban sprawl and other development.
The thread I see throughout this forum’s postings is the need for funding and policing, which requires funding. I pay for a forest pass to park at trailheads, I would pay, if the fee were reasonable and there were an easy-to-use annual pass, to park so I can use other public lands. I think vehicles should be licensed, but, then, so should mountain bikes, but reasonable so, and comensurate with the impact the vehicles have on the land and, therefore, the amount of maintenance required to support their use. 4×4 and other motorized vehicle users need to be aware of the impact they have on the land and be mindful of such things as not causing erosion near streams/rivers, creating gullies, and so on. I can hike/run/ski for miles without having a noticeable impact on the terrain I pass through, but even a mountain bike will have significantly more impact on a trail.
It seems to me that the solution involves all interested groups working together to secure more land overall that is available for recreational use (meaning not developed) and work towards a management plan that will provide enough for all users so that illegal use is curbed, groups are somewhat self-policing, and there is funding for enforcement of use limitations, litter, and so on.
Erik 8:40 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am both a private and a commercial user of the Cypress Island NRCA. Although this outstanding place cannot compete with some of the ORV areas in Washington State, in terms of users, it makes up for it in its uniqueness and location. It is one of the most easily accessed islands in the San Juan Islands for human powered craft, and the natural beauty and biodiversity found there is unsurpassed. Over the years the DNR has had increasing difficulty in getting funds to keep the camp areas open. Lately they have actually been closed for most of the year. I’d like to see a coordinated effort to get a solid stewardship program going that would enable the DNR to reopen these areas for users coming to the island using human powered craft, and other vessels too small to sleep in. We’ve started the process and hopefully it will take hold and enable the citizens of Washington to once again spent an off-season evening watching the moon rising over the Cascade Mountains.
For the record, I would also support the creation of a mechanism to allow commercial and private users to pay for camping on the island. Provided that the money would actually go towards the maintenance of the facilities.
Karen Johnson 8:25 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am a horseback rider that has been using Capitol Forest as a primary riding opportunity since 1994. I very much appreciate the opportunity to use this DNR property and enjoy its beauty and variety very much. I have also used Elbe Hills (Sahara Horse Camp) several times over the years. I am a member of two BCHW chapters in the Olympia area and volunteer for DNR trail work on a regular basis.
The change I have experienced with Capitol Forest is the increase in users of all types with the majority being mountain bikers. I have found the multi-use trails to have worked well over the years and most users are courteous and pleasant when meeting one another. I do have concerns about mountain bikers who are enjoying their rides and may not be thinking about their speed and how it could endanger other users. I would like to see some areas posted with caution signs for blind corners so folks could be warned about the possibility of meeting another user in the area. Users need to see and be able to hear each other when approaching each other. Horses are prey animals and their behavior when startled can be alarming and very dangerous to the rider or anyone on the ground.
I really appreciate the willingness of DNR to involve the user groups in planning. It creates cooperation between the user groups themselves and also the DNR staff. Individuals become more interested in being involved with what is happening on their public lands and are more willing to volunteer help.
Thank you for this opportunity to express our thoughts.
Walter Yi 8:11 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I’m an avid mountain biker and hiker and my standpoint is from a mountain bikers perspective. Mountain bikers are growing in numbers and as a by product, are becoming increasingly more educated regarding environmentally sustainable trails and general land management. Although I feel privileged to be able to recreate on DNR lands, DNR land managers and mountain bike advocacy organizations such as Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance can work together better to open more regions and allow an ever increasing number of mountain bikers to recreate on DNR managed land. Mountain bike organizations are proving they can manage and build sustainable trails when allowed and act as stewards. When budgets are tight and outdoor recreation comes at a premium, I believe this would be a step in the right direction.
Brandon 8:06 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I raised my family camping and riding motorcycles and quads on DNR land (Tahuya, Elbe, Jones Creek, recently Reiter and Walker Valley) as well as lands under other jurisdiction (Naches, Evans Creek, GP, etc) In the last 21 years I have watched areas be reduced in size and/or closed while at the same time fees have been implemented and/or raised (the cost of registering your bike has gone up exponentially)
I have seen the DNR make great efforts in places like Tahuya where the Elfendahl Pass Staging area was paved, covered picnic areas erected, water pumps installed and very nice wheel chair accessible outhouses installed then watched as, over the years, some no respect slobs destroy much of the day use area (outhouse doors smashed, water pumps disabled, etc)
I am all for multi-use on the trails but, unfortunately, I have never seen an ORR (Off Road Recreationist) sticker and annual tab on a mountain bike, hiker or horse (and horse exhaust is kinda nasty to run into on the trail! Just sayin’) When the bikers, quaders and wheelers put their toys away and stop paying for the trails what will all the other users do?
I’ve also seen trail destruction at the hand of ALL users whether it be from failure to pack out your trash to refusal to stay on the designated trails.
I think opening – or re-opening – more areas would be helpful in lessening the impact on the few that remain (especially the very few that are open and accessible year round) A user fee for those who currently enjoy the areas for free (horses, mt bikes, hikers) would probably go a long way in reducing the frustration that many motorized users feel.
Sammy S 8:02 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I rarely recreate on DNR managed lands in WA State anymore as the DNR has continually confined ever increasing numbers of OHV users into smaller and smaller “play pens” over the last 30 years, e.g, closure of Tiger Mtn, P5000, 95% of Reiter, Sultan Basin, etc. to OHV use. They have also taken the fun factor out of the trails by over constructing them. I still use my dirt bikes a lot on USFS land and on trails outside of WA State.
The DNR has single handedly created excessive impacts by concentrating OHV use into small areas instead of properly dispersing that use over large areas. This improper concentration of use accelerates wear and tear on those too few trail facilities.
I own property abutting DNR land that is open to OHV use and belong to a club that owns land abutting two different DNR areas open to OHV use. However, I will not use my OHVs in those areas on the weekends as they are so overcrowded (thanks to the DNR’s short sighted policies of reducing legal OHV opportunities) that it is unsafe even for an experienced rider such as myself and way too dangerous for my grand kids!
I believe the DNR has squandered the roughly 40% of the NOVA funds they have received off-the-top for over 40 years and I would like to see the DNR refund that money to the ORV users that provided those funds. Those funds should at least have been used to keep the DNR roads open for ORV use but the DNR has done exactly the opposite. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!
Millions of dollars taken from the ORV users and squandered! In fact, the DNR has never been able to definitively show what they even did with all that money! Meanwhile, the amount of DNR managed land open for OHV use gets smaller and smaller.
When is Goldmark going to make good on his campaign statement, “Ride with Goldmark”? Was that just another lie to get elected? If so, put him on the bums to be thrown out list just like Sutherland, but faster!.
Tod Petersen 7:47 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
For the most part I ride a motorcycle of single track trails.
In addition to that I hike, climb tiny mountains, kill little fish and put them in my tummy.
My motorcycle riding happens at Walker Valley, Tahuya and eveerywhere else that is legal, it should happen at Reiter too. The rest of my recreation that happens on public land managed by the DNR occurs in areas where recreation is not signifigantly managed or noticed.
That said, motorized recreational access is what I value the most. When considering the overall trail landscape throughout the state, motorized trail access is disproportionately underserved. Many more DNR managed landscapes would facilitate low impact single track motorize recreation than are currently legally available.
Laura 7:29 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I use DNR lands for horseback riding. We do our best to leave no trace . . . and to respect the trails . . . i.e. not riding when it’s muddy. 95% of mtn. bikers are courteous and just want to share the trails. they maintain the lower half and we clean up the upper half of trails. i am in support of the ORV folks having their own trails . . . it’s tough to share trails with folks that can’t hear anyone else on the trail, but I certainly believe they should have their place to recreate, too. Thanks DNR for allowing us to recreate on state lands!!
GabrielU 7:08 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Thanks to the DNR folks who are working diligently to try and accommodate the needs of the public. I commend them and remind them that most riders understand the difficult triage situation the DNR is in, and only want to have more opportunity to partner with the DNR to improve acess to ALL users.
I am a motorcycle rider and hiker. I hike all over the state but primarily in the cascades. I use my offroad motorcycle at Walker, Tahuya, Capitol forest, Taneum and Teanaway.
As a hiker I am amazed that hikers would choose to go hiking in areas designated for ORV use. Of course one can hike just about anywhere, but there are so many trails available to foot traffic…
As a dirt biker I enjoy riding on trails and find the available ORV trail to be insufficient for the amount of users in the state. Given the small percentage of motorized to non-motorized trail I think there is room for more ORVs to decrease pressure on the existing sites and minimize unauthorized riding. There are many clubs and associations that would be willing to be stewards of areas and maintain them free of trash and in good shape. The vast majority of riders cares about their sport and try to minimize impact on neighboring areas and other users of the forest. The best way to minimize or eliminate the small minority of inconsiderate riders is to empower the rider community itself. Walker Valley is a great example of collaboration between the state and local clubs.
Hurricane Harry 7:02 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
As an avid ORV user at Walker and Reiter, myself and others put in countless hours of volunteer work.
DNR is still closing trails and giving false hope.
DNR prove to us that we can trust you to keep our areas open.
Neil Stamp 6:35 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I own a 4×4, a small UTV, and Dirtbikes for my entire family. We enjoy being able to go away for the weekend with our trailer and camp as a family but also being able to ride as well. Our favorite spot used to be Kamenga Campground at Tahuya until DNR lost funding and decided it was something that could be cut. We now camp at Taneum Junction on Forest Service land mostly. I enjoy day trips to Walker Valley, Reiter and Capital Forest as well but as others pointed out the “What has changed” part is that the areas are overcrowded as we keep losing our trails and not gaining them. Take Reiter for instance. About 4,000 acres of the 10,000 acres at Reiter have been used by ORV’s for the past 30yrs. The new DNR plan has limited ORV use to only 1,100 acres. That is 72.5% less land for ORV use than what has historically been available. WE NEED MORE TRAILS.
Lee R. 6:21 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My family has lived on the shoreline of Totten Inlet for 25 years. Throughout that time we have untilized the public waters (DNR Trust Lands) of Totten Inlet for a variety of water based recreational activity, i.e. rowing, sailing, water skiing, fishing, and just plain old peaceful boat rides. All these activties have been possible because of open navigation throughout the inlet. Recently, the peace, beauty, and public access to the open navigable public waters (DNR Trust Lands) of Totten Inlet are being taken over by commercial aquaculture activities in the form of acres and acres of floating mussel growing rafts and longline shellfish growing systems. An additional 12 acres of this public domain is proposed to be given over to another array of floating mussel rafts for the profit of the aquaculture industry. The impacts to public recreational use of these waters (to say nothing of the negative environmental impacts on a host of inter and sub-tidal marine organisms) is enormous. Totten Inlet is being allowed to become a commercial industrial development – STOP THE CARNAGE NOW!!
Cassie F 5:41 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My preferred form of recreation is via horse… but I also ride ATV’s with my husband. We primarily ride in Capitol Forest.
As a horseback rider I do see MANY more riding options vs the options available on the ATV. OF COURSE I do want to see more trails for horses & better facilities… specifically restrooms, larger trailhead parking, nicer campgrounds, etc… but I’d be selfish not to hope for more LEGAL options for the ATV community as well.
My husband travels to Oregon as much as he can because he prefers the dunes #1 but #2 there really are very few legal riding options available to him nearby. We were elated when the ORV park opened back up in Grays Harbor County- what a boost to that community.
My husband has been more than willing to do horse/hiker/biker trail maintenance with the ATV when able/needed… I think my husbands availability & willingness is an example of how all user groups can help eachother. The key is respect & awareness for one another. I would love to see him have more riding options… as I know he is AND WILL BE IN THE FUTURE maintaining hiker/biker/horse trails.
That said, I know he’s mentioned becoming a member of a club to do bike/quad trails but he’s not sure where to look in our area.
Dale Gibbon 5:09 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I guess I really didn’t answer the questions directly.
I am a 4×4 user and camper at 4×4 parks in a motorhome. I trailer my ORV into the parks as my vehicle, although fully licensed and insured is not street legal. I recreate most of the time with my family.
Over the past years I have seen great things happening at my home park, which is Elbe Hills ORV park, mostly because of the participation of our friend Nancy Barker! We appreciate what the DNR has been doing out there and I hope the DNR appreciates the support that we have shown through our volunteer support for the park.
I already posted my rant on the need for more trail mileage but as a family oriented user of these parks I need to address the need to enforcement, particularly in the campgrounds. Over the past few years I’ve noticed an increase in the underage drinking and drugging parties going on in these areas because the kids know that there’s not going to be anyone there to enforce the laws. I’ve seen and heard of an increase in gun related incidents and I’ve heard more than a few say that they won’t go to some of the parks overnight if they’re not “packing”, or that they fear for the safety of their family.
Interestingly, it’s not the ORV users that seem to be at the heart of the issue, it’s the kid’s up there partying that are there for no other reason. Some of these parties go on all night, are loud and dangerous including illegal fires, camping in illegal areas and a huge trash mess when they’re done. 15 years ago when I started wheeling, I don’t remember all this, now it seems like it’s almost every weekend that I go (and I hear it from others) that there’s a problem with the teen partys. I know this may fall more into the enforcement discussion tomorrow but I posted it here because it’s a change that I’ve seen over the past few years, due to a decrease in enforcement.
Susan S. 5:07 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I too, like Stephanie ride my horse on Green Mountain and participate as a camp host at the Green Mt. Horse Camp. Interaction with Mt. Bikes, Motorcycles and hikers, in general, tends to be amicable, however there is always someone in the crowd that does not participate in adult behavior. Although the roads are clearly marked no ORV use, many choose to ignore the signs. Having young horses or young riders involved in possible dangerous encounters with a fast moving motorcycle can have dire results. I wish everyone were required to take a course in good citizenship before being allowed on the trails. Twenty five years ago, I trained my young horse on the trails at the Tahuya River Horse Camp area and encounters with motorcycles were frequent, but much calmer than today. The Tahuya area is almost all motorcycles now with the occasional camp out from our BCH group. We used to have designated horse or motorcycle trails, but no more. We all share the same trails. Hopefully we can all get along to enjoy the wonderful miles of trails managed by our gracious hosts from DNR.
shrubitup 7:26 pm on September 14, 2010 Permalink
I am sorry you have encountered those who ride their ORVs on the roads at Green Mountain. Did you know that there’s hundreds of miles of forest service roads in the Olympic National Forest nearby? Did you also know that it’s illegal to ride those as an ORV? Your chances of finding solitude there are MUCH greater than expecting NO dirt bikes at Green Mountain. I have a dual sport motorcycle that is legal to ride the roads. That said, I ride them slowly because the area is not a closed course, is a multiple use area, and you never know what is around the next corner. I do apologize that you have experience the errant law breaking dirt biker whizzing by you. However, it seems that you expect Green Mountain to cater only to horse users. Again, lots of absolutely pristine dirt bike-free trails and roads you can legally explore in the National Forest that I can NOT.
I suggest that you check those out or at least tolerate multiple use in near proximity to urban centers.
Janice Reagan 5:03 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Primarily we walk and ride horses on DNR land on the Olympic Peninsula. We have found in the last few years that trail maintenance is a major issue. It seems to be handled by volunteers more often than not and not on a regularly scheduled basis. While riding out at Salt Creek the branches were grown over the trail and my horse stuck a leg through the rotten boards of a bridge. According to DNR the Boy Scouts were supposed to be maintaining the trail but they didn’t have a contact number for me. thanks for whatever you do to keep those trails open and maintained!!!!
protected static 5:02 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I wish there was some DNR land open to target shooting closer to Seattle. I understand the problems with illegal dumping that plague shooting sites (which I suspect is exacerbated by the nature of the sites themselves – it’s easier to dump a big load of stuff in a space which, of necessity, needs to be fairly wide open), so maybe the DNR could explore some kind of volunteer-based ‘adopt-a-site’ program?
Bill Latham 4:49 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Greetings to all.
I am a rider of an off-road motorcycle. I generally ride at Walker Valley, previously at Reiter and occasionally at Capital Forest. The friends I ride with and I consider ourselves responsible riders, we always clean up any trash we see, volunteer to help with the Reiter work group, etc. I am fortunate to have some area at my home to ride so most of my riding on DNR property is in club events. Because there is such limited area in western Washington where riding is allowed, most of us have long drives to ride legally.
I have only been riding for about 3 years so am not knowledgeable about what riding used to be like here. I do know that the closure of Reiter has put increased pressure on Walker Valley. This creates a vicious cycle: less area, more intense use, more wear and tear on the land which leads to closure for rehabilitation.
The solution in my mind is to work on increasing the area available which will reduce the intensity of use and reverse the cycle.
Pete 4:43 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am a single-track dirt bike rider. Reiter and Walker Valley are the DNR lands that I ride, although now that Reiter is closed down I have seen Walker Valley deteriorate from over-use. It is imperative that there be more single-track trail mileage available so that everybody is not crowded onto limited trails that can’t sustain the amount of use they are now getting, and also to eliminate the danger of having too many users on the limited amount of trails. We need more trail mileage to limit the impact!
Dale Gibbon 4:26 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
We are sadly in new of expanded trail mileage for the 4×4 community. With so many users trying to access legal trail systems, these systems are becoming overutilized and thus the wear and tear is ever increasing. 4×4 user groups have historically been fantastic at volunteering their time, effort and finances to maintain and improve areas that we have available to us now. Bottom line is that without more trail mileage two things are going to happen. There’s going to be an increase in the usage off illegal trails and our legal trail systems are going to deteriorate quickly.
I applaud what the DNR has been doing in the parks that we do have here is Western Washington. The DNR is responsive to user input in terms of how trails are managed and used but we need more mileage. The USFS has recently made changes to how Evans Creek is being used by drastically limiting the vehicle size, so much so that they have virtually eliminated 70% of the vehicles that have been using those trails. Those users have to go somewhere and they are left with the DNR parks.
The vehicles have dramatically changed over the past 30 years and the trail systems need to be updated to accomodate the new breed of off road vehicles. There are a lot of people putting VERY serious amounts of money into these recreational vehicles and as a side effect, it’s a substantial amount of business revenue for small business in our area.
Let’s take a serious look at the ORV parks available and maximize the trail mileage in order to minimize the trail deterioration. The user groups will provide the resources if the DNR will provide the opportunity.
Dale Gibbon
President, Faithwheelers Off Road Club
Darrell Wallace 4:22 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I ride my horse on DNR land around the state, especially Capitol Forest, Elbe Hills, Wenas Creek, and Les Hilde.
The biggest change has been the explosion of motorized users, especially ATVs. It is clear that there are sometimes conflicts between motorized and non-motorized users, but Capitol Forest is a good example of dividing the resources fairly, and bringing users together so that everyone gains more opportunity for their preferred recreational activity. When 4-wheelers, dirt bikers, mountain bikers, hikers and equestrians all work together to maintain trails for everyone, we all benefit. And I really don’t care if they wear body armor, helmets, cowboy hats, or anything at all, but I recommend gloves when we maintain trails – naturalists, we barely notice you!
But let’s not kid ourselves – every time there is a perceived threat to the environment, people will come out of the woodwork to demand closures, and even initiate legal action. Habitiat protection and water quality will become bigger issues than ever in the years to come, and DNR will have no choice but to show that they are complying with both.
Money Mark 3:25 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid 4×4 user, as well as a rock climber and hiker. I used Reiter when open and currently use Walker Valley, for ORV use.
(ORV) Recreation has changed greatly and the DNR, while making an honest effort, has not kept up with the increase of use. There needs to be more ORV trails. Period.
Nick 3:11 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Short but sweet,…….. Hikers and Horse lovers have tens of thousands of miles in this state to ride and hike, including paved trails, beaches( if we want to ride a coastal beach we have to go to Oregon) and mountainous trails They can usually do either straight from their house. We (quad/bike riders) have been left with one overcrowded trail area to ride in this county. I pay to have my truck, trailer and three quads to be tabbed and licenced and volunteer with my company (WM) every year for clean up. I don’t know how much more hikers and horse riders pay, However it must be quite substantial to have sooooo many more miles to do their thing. Yes, there are a few bad apples, focus on them and let us ride.
John S 2:35 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I agree with Howard, I too am a law abiding naturist. I do like to free hike, camp, and bike in the nude. I am very careful not to offend anyone. In fact I would never hike, camp or bike where I believe I would run into people. I do wish there were areas in Washington state where a person could free hike. I have been to areas where people have littered rivers, trails, and beaches. I would like to start a naturist group in washington state that would take it upon ourselves to clean up these areas as a service to the community if these out of the areas where allowed to be clothing optional areas.
All naturist are not into offending people, just desiring to be in the good outdoors in “la natural.”
I don’t think the DNR, national forest, etc wants to spend the man power in cleaning up the trash left by people who don’t care about their public areas. There are a lot of naturist in every state that desire to help as long as there are set aside some clothing optional areas.
Thanks for any considration.
Jeff Chapman 3:06 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am not a naturist at all, but I do a lot of volunteer advocacy for recreational funding. We were in DC earlier this year during Great Outdoors Week, and sat with lobbyists from AANR (American Association for Nude Recreation). They were like the nicest happiest folks on earth, and they gave me some pretty good useful insights into savvy advocacy with Congress. Not to mention their useful logo handouts – chapstick and sunblock packets. They also are the primary beach cleanup volunteers in Florida.
Good luck John and Howard!!!
Tod Petersen 7:55 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am a little shy to be a “naturalist”, but fully support their desire to have a place to enjoy a bit of fresh air in peace.
Rodney Gray 8:28 am on September 16, 2010 Permalink
Thanks Tod for your support. Its refreshing to actually see a mature response from someone. I have a textile friend Trina who feels the same way, she is not a Naturist either, but can be in the company of them and not bat an eye. She comes over every Sunday to watch a Bluray movie with me and shows no concern that I stay naked and we are only friends. She told me to tell you thanks for being a good person and understanding that nudity is just another state of dress. Some like to dress in several layers of clothes, others like to dress in what they were born in, its all the same thing, just another state of dress. For me personally clothes were invented for protection from the elements, well if I dont feel they need for protection, then I must not need it. I should be the one to determine if I need to wear something, not someone else who has no clue how my body feels at the time. Anyway, I hope to see some posted clothing “optional” trails. Again, thanks for your support…
Rodney Gray 8:33 am on September 15, 2010 Permalink
I agree with Howard 100%. I have been a hiking naturist since I was a young teen. I camp, hike, boat, sunbath and have even gone horse back riding all in my God givin birthday suit. I to am always forced to have to go out of my way to make sure I do not offend someone, of course always nervous on the trail when I should be enjoying Gods creations. In over 25 years and thousands of hiking naked miles within various states, I have only been seen by one unexpected individual, and that lone female was also hiking nude, on a trail over 5 miles from the nearest trail head on a weekday deep within a large National Forest Park, a clear testament to what lengths we naturists are forced to go to try and avoid offending someone. People shouldnt be offended by Gods creation in the first place, but I find it a shame that this country has millions of naturists yet we do not have many trails actually posted for clothing optional use, if any at all, like many other countries do. Some nudists just feel more comfortable naked, some like the wonderful feeling of air all around their bodies as they hike or bike and feel they have the right to experience life that way. Others, like myself are just simply incredibly uncomfortable in any clothes of any kind that obstructs the free flowing air movement that God wanted us to feel in the first place. As a Tax paying Computer Engineer, individuals and naturists like myself deserve areas to enjoy, and can not be asked to stay home in their free time 24/7 and not enjoy the great outdoors like everyone else is allowed to do. Recently Germany created its first official clothing optional trail system, which allows both the clothed and unclothed person to hike side by side without fear of persecution from law enforcement. The German Government seems to clearly understand that there is a BIG difference between simple innocent “Nude Activity” and illegally indecent “Lewd Activity”. Washington has a very large naturist community and should be considering at the very least selecting some of the out-of-the-way trail systems that are not hiked as frequently, and posting such trails as clothing optional. God created the perfect natural body, and then people covered it up unnaturally. Please give us some trail systems that are less expected to have anyone but the hard core hiker using and post them clothing optional. Peace!
Luey H 2:04 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Hello, I’m the Vice-President of Wheelers Of Washington(WOW)… My family and myself enjoy 4×4 recreation on DNR land… Mostly at Elbe Hills, but we frequent as many areas as we can… We have logged countless hours volunteering at our local ORV parks…
As a user/volunteer I see over use in many areas because of the lack of places for us to recreate… Growing up I “wheeled” with my parents in the ’70s and ’80s… The amount of public land that I have to share with my children, pales in comparison to what was available in the past…
The areas that are legal to use have a large network of volunteer groups that help maintain our trail systems… Unlike the places that are closed to motorized use, we keep our areas clean… Having a community of users that have access to recreate in an area allows them to take pride in keeping it usable…
Morris Arthur 2:00 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Trail runner, hiker, mtn biker. I support DNR’s coordination with user groups to continue and improve access to DNR lands for recreation. I’m sure others are more qualified to suggest how it can be done, but I’m certainly willing to support the process.
Preston Peterson 1:56 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My primary recreation is mountain biking. I encourage the DNR to continue to develop and maintain bicycle accessible singletrack. In fact I encourage multi-use trails in general to maximize trail mileage for all users, except in the case of one way DH or stunt oriented trails which I believe have a legitimate place in the recreation spectrum.
eric basha 4:30 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Like Preston, my primary activity is mountain biking (and I do a good deal of hiking as well). As many have pointed out, there seems to be sufficient land available to accommodate multiple user groups–even if some trails are dedicated to specific activities as Preston suggests above.
There should indeed be one-way trails for mountain bike or moto use (not necessarily on the same trail) and stunts/structures for free-ride style biking should be allowed in specific locations. Ideally, if such areas were allowed with some outreach, education, etc. for trail builders (to ensure structural integrity, mitigate environmental impact, etc.) it would increase the land’s recreational value, while reducing un-sanctioned trail/stunt building.
Jacob V 1:55 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My primary recreational activity on DNR lands is 4×4′ing. I have put in over 150 hours of volunteer time this summer between Walker Valley and Reiter.
In the NW region of Washington state, there is 4 miles of legal trails. This 4 miles is unsustainable for the amount of users we have. With Reiter opening (hopefully) in the next few years, we may see double this mileage. That will lessen the strain on Walker Valley, but not on the legal ORV trail system as a whole. The matter of the fact is that we have too many recreators on too little land. The consequence is trails which are in bad, unmanageable shape and illegal “dispersed recreation.” We will see an increase in these consequences because the 4×4 world is growing, with more and more users each year.
Also, the current trail systems offer little challenge for “built” 4 wheel drive vehicles. These vehicles are equipped with 40 inch tires, differential lockers, and modified suspensions. Most of these vehicles are built to preform well on rocks. Rocks are a manageable terrain for recreation on DNR land. When vehicles travel across a rock surface, there is very little silt runoff into neighboring areas. Adding rock obstacles in 4×4 trails are a way to encourage sustainable recreation.
Neil Stamp 6:50 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I agree with most of what you said except…..
Why should DNR spend money and time to add rock obstacles if that is not the natural terrain?
If I want to ride flatter flowing trails I go to Tahuya. If I want steeper climbs and lots of ill placed paver blocks I go to Walker. If I want a combination of steep switchback laced trails and flowing faster trails I go to Taneum. If I want rocky desert terrain I go to Mattawa. Maybe if people build their vehicles for rock obstacles only, they should go to Moab.
Matt B 1:47 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I agree with Judd, Kevin, and Jakob. i am a DNR volunteer and 4×4 user at Walker Valley. Plain and simple there needs to be more trails.. Walker Valley has the potential to be a great place and with Reiter closed down there is more traffic there then before…i find myself driving 4 hours out of my way to another ORV park to have a great time when i am only located 20 minutes from Walker Valley…the land is there and the volunteers are here i am sure i speak for most of them when i say, we are willing to make more, NEW or refurbish old trails…. like i said at the begining it is plain and simple WE NEED MORE TRAILS
Beverly 1:37 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I live boardered on two sides of DNR land. I can tell you with full honesty that the ORVs that are not supposed to be there (by posted signs) are there constantly. They tear their own trails off the forrest roads, chase game, use the vehicles for illegal hunting, throw garbage into the brush and along the roads, and cut trails around the closed gated area and in general have no regard for the State Owned land. The theory being their tax dollars own it so what! We walk in the woods and even ride the roads with bags to help keep the forest clean, because our state no longer supports the funds to hire security for our natural resources that do in fact help support our beautiful evergreen state.
The ORV’s make mud holes and mud runs, that damage the water shed. Ideally, there should be more parks or areas set aside just for that so, they can rip, snort, and tear all they like. I have seen wilderness trails that used to be access to pristine areas, Like in the Gifford Pinchot area, turned into muddy streams in the winter and snow run off.
People say…ohh the horses and foot traffic do damage, but believe me it is nil to nothing to what I have seen the damage vehicles do.
I live in Grays Harbor county, and love the forest and animals that are sheltered there. Being we are allowed to express individual thoughts..my vote is for the horse people and foot traffic that constantly seem to be cleaning up clutter, beer cans and toilet paper that others leave behind. Don’t forget…the Back Country Horsemens motto…’LEAVE NO TRACE” It works!
Kevin V 2:28 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Not being argumentative, and I thank you for the support of legal ORV parks….but have you done any real number comparisons between hiking ‘impact’ vs motorized ‘impact’???? I can assure you the numbers show a tremendously larger impact with respect to hiking trails vs motorized…how many miles of hiking trails are recognized on the west side of the state alone? OVER 3,200 miles, and those are just the recognized/designated trails… And how many miles are recognized currently on this side of the state for motorized (all forms included here), maaaaybe 200 miles….you do the math. I am in no way against non-motorized user groups…just want those to be aware/educated when they say things about other users (again, not being argumentative, just shedding some light!)…
The vast majority of 4×4, atv, and singletrack users I know or know about are responsible users…. no one group (motorized or otherwise) is or ever will be perfect….we all need to work together to try and change that, even if it is only one person at a time!!!
Jakob P 3:34 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Beverly,
You make some good points about the issues surrounding illegal ORV use. The problem you’re facing is that people are building trails on their own because there isn’t enough trails to sustain the user groups. Worse, since these areas are illegal, user groups cannot go in and help facilitate trash cleanup, not going through rivers, etc.
There are basically three groups of people. And these groups apply to most recreation groups, be it DH, Freestyle, hikers, Back country horsemen, etc.
1) Law abiding users. These people work within the system and generally listen and support DNRs actions. They volunteer in legal areas and help maintain ORV trails. Although they’d like to see more trail, they’re content enough with the legal options that they will stay within the confines, no matter how little they get.
2) Users who don’t care. These people go wherever they want, and have no regard for the environment, surrounding users, etc. They usually don’t volunteer and don’t care what DNR does because they’ll just find a new spot in the millions of acres to recreate. They’re responsible for going through mud bogs, throwing out trash, etc.
3) Users who create unauthorized trails, but want to see legal options for recreation. This group consists of people who are fed up with ‘the process’ and have made their own trails because whats available doesn’t suit their needs. These people volunteer in legal areas, but they also try to steer trail building in illegal areas in a way that would be sustainable ‘if legal’.
Its important to make this distinction. If DNR was willing to work with user groups on some of the larger unmanaged areas, we’d see trash go away and trails being built more sustainably (avoiding rivers, riparian areas, etc).
But Kevin is right about impact. Non-Motorized use has a much larger by-the-acre impact over the landscape. Over 3200 miles of designated trails in the NW region (DNR/NFS/PARKS) vs 4 Miles at WV + ~200 miles of unauthorized trail. ORV use has a larger localized impact, but non-motorized use is has a much larger -big picture- impact.
A forester gave this interesting quote to me this weekend: “There is no right or wrong in the forest, just consequences. Every decision has impact on the ecosystem”
Rick W 1:36 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Part One: “What types of recreation activities do you participate in on DNR-managed lands and where on DNR-managed lands do you like to recreate?”
I’m a four wheel drive enthusiast who recreates often at Walker Valley and formerly Reiter trails.
Part Two: “How has recreation on DNR-managed lands changed over the years?”
The single biggest change I’ve seen in the couple decades or so I’ve been a user are more areas being closed while the recreation population grows. All of the current areas both DNR and other are severely overused due to over population of users to trail ratio…..Quality of trails is also important in this ratio as if the trails available don’t keep people entertained they will keep looking elsewhere for the trails they want. If legal trails aren’t available then “not so legal” trails become more common.
I would like for the DNR to grow with the user groups and form alliances to build new quality trails so everyone is happy.
Erik Zimmerman 1:14 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid mountain biker, climber, hiker, and camper. I have been quite impressed at the availability of public lands and trails in WA state since moving here 1 1/2 years ago. Thank you for all your efforts to clean up the impromptu firing ranges in recreation areas. Stumbling across an array of these every other switchback on a service road was one of the most disheartening experiences I’ve had on DNR land.
I also regularly use the DNR campsites. It is great to have a free and more primitive alternative to the overcrowded, overpriced state park campgrounds on the Olympic Peninsula.
As the volume of outdoor enthusiasts increases, it is imperative that the DNR work together with volunteer groups to see that trails and campgrounds are built in a sustainable and safe manner. By reaching out to user groups and their volunteer workforce, the DNR’s dwindling budget can be stretched even further These public lands should keep pace with the evolution of the user groups, and be managed with the foresight to prevent abuse.
In addition, by “giving your blessing” to bikers/hikers to cut and maintain trails, you ensure the presence of responsible users on the land. They may not be able to police the lands, but their presence will dissuade land abuse by unlawful types, and they can be additional eyes and ears in the woods to alert the DNR to any illicit activity.
Jeff M. 1:00 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I’m an avid mountain biker and and dirt biker from the olympic penninsula. As a mountain biker I feel that there are alot of opportunities for riding on county , state park ,and private timber land. As an an ORVer there are few opportunities to legally ride and I need to travel approx. 150 miles to Tahuya or more to Capitol forest. There is the Burnt Hill area but I haven’t ridden there in some time because it was getting too much use from too many different user groups and becomming harder to tell where designated trails where. In the last 10 years it has changed quite abit.
I think the mountain bike community and other user groups are an untapped resource to help fund and maintain trail systems and parking areas. The ORV crowd has been paying their share for some time. My ORV tabs went from $ 6 and change to almost $ 20 a year. I would not mind paying a small fee to ride my mountain bike as well a long as it went to help the whole offroad community.There is alot of land out there for everybody . Thanks
stephanie 2:13 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid horseback rider and travel all over to do so even tho green mt is in my back yard and I have camp hosted there in past years. I feel there needs to be more education to the different user groups on how to interact with each other on the trail. For instance what do you do when you come upon a horse and rider? what do you do if you are hiking?mt biking? or off road dirt bike or quad? what do you think the horse rider should do? What is the legal thing you should do? What about trail manners? How does the horse see the mt.biker? the hiker? or the dirt bike/quad? I have no problem with quads and dirt bikes as I have one and ride it too, I also like to hike on occasion. But while out on my horse trying to enjoy the trails the worst offenders have been back packers/hikers as they have been the most rude! next was mt bikers! most don’t even say hi and then refuse to step off the trail or have been down right cranky.
Neil Stamp 6:15 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
As a responsible ORV user, I’m sorry you have apparantly had negative interactions with other users while on your horse. I for one try to stop and kill the motor on my dirtbike as quickly as I can and remove my helmet. I was told that this is the safest way for the Horseman. I don’t want to spook a horse or any animal for that matter and would hate if someone was thrown from their horse because of someone riding by. It’s worth taking the time for respect among users.
JKennedy 1:00 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid bike rider and marketing manager for a large bike company located just outside of Seattle, WA but more importantly a proponent of sustainable (manageable/maintainable) recreation. I’ll speak from the viewpoint of the mountain bike community as that’s what I know best but can relate to many of the underserved (and often misunderstood) user groups out there.
I feel that there needs to be a paradigm shift amongst policy makers and land managers to better understand and provide for the booming recreation community. Concurrently, those very same communities need to be creative and help to support the recreation they desire.
I believe the DNR has done a better job of trying to understand how to do this over the past couple of years. With emaciated budgets and a continued lack of resources on the ground, I can clearly see how this has become an impasse. I do believe, however, that the users at large as well as the recreational and business communities are willing to step up and help to ease these burdens on the DNR should we see REAL progress towards new facilities and better management/maintenance of old ones.
Specifically from the mountain bike community’s standpoint, there is an enormous population of riders whose needs are not being met at all. DH and freeride mountain biking has no place to go in WA state and therefore take it upon themselves to meet their own needs. This tends to demonize them in others eyes though and causes unnecessary misconceptions should their needs be addressed. Let’s find a way as a community to work towards a solution.
Jon C. 12:47 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Hello, I am a Mountain Biker that recreates off HWY 542. I feel privileged to live in a state with so much wild terrain and beautiful wilderness. I believe that with enough mutual respect and support from individual user-groups, we can all enjoy our state’s wilderness.
Jeff 12:39 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
As a 4×4 user I would like to see the addition of some 4×4 trails in the Okanogan County area. The nearest trails to the Okanogan are around three hours away. And as many people have mentioned already, the present trail systems for 4×4 users are often “overused”. I think it would be very helpful if the DNR started looking at new areas where 4×4 trail systems could be established in order to lessen the pressure on present areas.
Kevin M 12:24 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am an avid mountain biker and owner of a mountain bike manufacturing company. The growth of mountain biking has been increasing in record numbers over the years. As this population increases it is crucial that areas of public land be available to mountain bikers just as hikers and other users have trails. The mountain bike population is very respectful as a whole to the environment and other users but they need designated places to build and maintain trails safely. There are tons of great mountain bike trail organizations that DNR can work with the create legal safe and maintained trails for mountain bikers that our company would support 100%.
Joe Pirelli 11:41 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I ride mountain bikes, hike and always enjoy the land available to us in whatever way I can. It seems like we have some great projects out there to ride on, and the potential for a lot more.
I am looking forward to seeing how the land is managed to cater to more mountain bikers, as well as other users of the land.
Eric B 11:33 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I’m a mountain biker and hiker (former moto rider as well) in Whatcom County. The DNR land that is along Highway 542, Highway 9 and south Whatcom / North Skagit county all are very important to mt. bikers, hikers, equestrians and 4×4 folks. There’s more than enough public land where responsible user groups can coexist, recreate and not have unwanted environmental impact.
This can be done with a management plan and coordinating with volunteer groups to help keep areas clean, build/maintain trail and be good stewards for said areas. In many ways, having responsible users on the land means we (the public) help keep unwanted activity out of these areas such as meth labs, garbage dumping, etc. just by our shear presence.
Cheers,
Eric
Matt Patterson 12:36 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Like Eric, I’m a mountain biker and hiker and I completely agree with his assertions that recreational use of the land, if done in a managed fashion, has many tangible benefits.
Willing and well organized volunteer groups are present and eager to be involved in the planning and execution of trails programs.
We need our representatives in the DNR to partner and pursue these opportunities together so that we can realize the potential of this incredible natural resource that is in such abundance in this beautiful state of ours!
Eric P-J 3:06 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I’ve been in this area for 24 years. Growing up in Washington as boy scout and avid hiker and now Eagle Scout and avid biker I’d like to see this beautiful land we have stay that way. It’s a shame see places like Reiter closing, places so many of us have memories that will last a life time. So many of us have grown up riding moto there or 4×4′ing with friends, If and when I have children I would love for them to be able to enjoy what this state has to offer the same way I was able to.
Kevin V 5:26 am on September 14, 2010 Permalink
Couldn’t agree more—It would be nice to see our children have the same opportunities we did growing up.
B Hawk 11:09 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Mt. Bike rider here. Looking for opportunities to build, maintain, and ride trails in Whatcom and Skagit Counties.
Ingrid 10:39 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Horseback rider and hiker here. We regularly ride on the DNR trails here near home (Port Angeles). They provide some of the best year round riding for us and I am very grateful to have access to them. We have also camped at Elbe Hills, a wonderful facility for horse people!
I am new to Washington, so can’t speak for changes in the system
Margaret 10:09 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
We like to trail ride and also enjoy riding four-wheelers and some hiking. Most of our trail riding is done in Whatcom County on the lower foot hills. We have also done riding in Eastern Washington and at the Les Hilde trail systems.
With more and more private land owners afraid to let people use their land, I think it is important for DNR to keep designated areas open for recreational users. The majority of users are not looking to thrash the areas. Most users are out there because they enjoy getting away from the “rat race” and are looking to enjoy the beautiful world God gave us.
Funds are tight for all of us, and I think that there are plenty of people out there that are willing to volunteer their time to help maintain trails and recreation areas. I want to encourage DNR to continue to fight to keep these lands accessible to all users.
Thanks for all you do!!
Judd B. 10:01 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
i am a 4×4 user that has been involved with dnr at the work parties at reiter and walker.There isn’t enough milage in trails for 4×4 users,specially with the closer of reiter and not knowing if or when the new reiter foothills orv area will open.
Why can’t dnr open or work with users to design and build more trails at walker. More trails at waker would mean less where and tear on existing trails.I will always contine to volunteer at walker and reiter when i can
Julie G. 9:32 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My family as well as other we know are into atv/ohv riding. We use mainly Quads, but also have the side by side UTV’s. We all would like to see more areas open to this type of sport. I know there has been alot of illegal usage on both DNR land and other private Timber lands, and I think that this could be alleviated if there were more legal places for everyone to go. We live near the Olympia area and only know of 3 or 4 legal trail systems to ride on and I only know of Tahuya Forest that is open for year round. I know for a fact alot of the riding clubs and private parties would help to maintain our trails, just like the makeover at the Rock Candy Staging area, was done by mainly volunteers, and alot of things were also donated by local people/businesses, as well. I loved the Yalcolt plan idea, it is quite far from us, but we would ride there. Currently we frequent Oregon’s riding areas, because there are just not enough around here in Washington. Quit trying to enforce the closures of areas, and try to work with the people and expand them or open new areas. The people will come, I assure you. We are all very friendly riders who would love to keep our family sport, as well as meet new riders. We will work together as we always have to make it a great experience. Thanks for making this forum so we could be heard, and Thank you for doing what you can do to keep areas open and develop new ones.
Mike McGlenn 9:23 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
As a Back Country Horseman I ride all year. The DNR public lands are the only, with the one exception of the Baker Lake Trail, trails open to us all year. We ride Blanchard Mountain, The Harry Osborn (Les Hilde) trails, Stewart Mountain, Blue Mountain, Saxon regularly all year. The low land DNR properties are very important to us. Without these opportuinities we would not be able to work with our stock and keep them in shape throughout the year. We ride, watch for wildlife, picnic, bird watch and enjoy the scenery of the area.
The DNR must have a sustainable funding source for recreation on the public lands. It is very improtant for folks in these hard times to be able to recreate with as little extra expense as possible. There has been talk of a fee system. This may be one source. A few years ago there was a plan to dedicate some of the public land to funding the recreation phase of DNR. This was a good idea, but seems to have been lost. The NOVA funds need to be fully restored to where they were designated to be.
I too wish to thank the dedicated folks with the DNR that try hard to keep recreation going with very little financial resources to do it.
Lori Lennox 8:54 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am a member and trail volunteer with Back Country Horsemen. My first horseback ride on DNR lands was in 1972 at Capitol Forest. I don’t believe I have missed at least one visit a year since then. I had the pleasure of introducing my son and many of his young friends to trail riding there over the years, starting in 1988. I could count on the trails there being safe and well maintained for the kids to learn and have fun. I was able to get away for a rare ride with my now 25 year old son and his wife last month. He remarked on how the place never seems to change much (in a good way!) and of his fond memories of riding and camping there. I rode there again yesterday and I am amazed at the good condition of the trail system and the trailheads, in spite of the lack of NOVA funds and the rotten timber market. My thanks to the DNR staff and all the wonderful volunteers who do so much work on this amazing place. I have a trip to Indian Camp & the LT Murray area planned for this summer also.
The changes I see is the vandalism that is occurring more and more frequently on both public and private lands. Having a camp host really does make a difference in feeling more secure. I feel that there has been a big improvement in the last couple of years where there are camp hosts.
One thing I worry about is the possibility of a wreck between a mountain bike and hiker/horse. It is the quietness of all involved and their meeting on a switchback or blind corner that could cause this scenario. A little bell on a bike would help alert the foot traffic and help everyone avoid a collision.
In the future I would like to see designated trails put in for the ‘extreme’ mountain bikers, complete with the obstacles they like challenge themselves with. This is a young(er) persons sport and I feel that we need to do what is necessary to keep our youth out of doors and recreating on DNR lands. They will appreciate and care for it and that can only help all user groups.
Thank you for this opportunity to comment and keep up the great work!
Howard Williamson 8:45 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I am a member of a large group of “invisible” and largely ignored group of people who would love to have a regular place to recreate. We are widely recognized by government agencies as “leaving a beach cleaner” and in having fewer – if no – problems than adjacent beaches. We are “naturists” or as we are more generally know – “nudists” – we are a large group of tax payers that are generally ignored in our request for a designated clothing optional beach or area where we can recreate without hassle from other people and from law enforcement. We are highly family oriented and do what is legal in Washington State. Contrary to many personal opinions – including some who are in a position of power – it is not illegal to be simply nude. What is illegal is if a person were to run around in a very public place nude with the intent of causing affront or alarm. The key word here is intent. There are many who think they have the right to not be offended, but that is not part of our laws. I am offended by the behavior or many people but that doesn’t make what they are doing illegal – as it should not make a person simply enjoying the sun and water and wind on their bare skin illegal. We do not want to offend, we simply want a place that is officially designated as clothing optional so that people will be notified and if they do not wish to be offended they can simply walk another route. We do not want exclusive use of an area, simply to be able to enjoy it hassle free. If someone wants to wear a swimsuit and is not offended by the sight of nude bodies, then all are welcome. But some people say they do not want to share their beach with anyone nude. We will share, why will they not share? We would love to have a shellfish farmer that is leasing a section of DNR shoreline welcome us to enjoy the area as a clothing optional area. We usually try to find an isolated area so that the casual walker will know what to expect and can act accordingly. With the extensive lands that DNR has, hopefully they can work with us to designate some of them for clothing optional use. Camping, hiking, mountain lakes for skinny dipping, beaches, etc. would all be welcome. How about it – isn’t this resource of public land something that should be available to all user groups? Oregon has a number of publically owned lands that are open to clothing optional use – why does Washington have nothing? Isn’t it time we moved into the 21st century and share the wealth.
Darcy Mitchem 8:30 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
In Cowlitz County the vast majority of DNR land, including a single block of 35,000 acres, is “landlocked” by timber companies (Mostly Weyerhaeuser). Because of this, the land is ineligible to even apply for NOVA funding. Cowlitz County pays in, but doesn’t get it’s fair share out. On the 35,000 acre Toutle block, all recreation is unmanaged and unplanned, and must remain that way due to the grant and funding processes that require legal access (but don’t give the DNR the authority to acquire it from reluctant sellers). Lack of legal access means no funding for any recreation, including a recreation plan. Despite this, the Toutle block’s logging roads are popular with ATV/ORV in the summer and snowmobiles in the winter. As a resident, I use the land for hunting, berry picking, driving, skiing and to access forest service trails to Mount St. Helens and Castle Lake. The Toutle block also borders a 7,000 acre state wildlife area. Neither piece of land has any developed recreation, because, it to is landlocked by Weyerhaeuser. The private lands can be closed to all entry, blocking access to what amounts to 50,000 acres of state and federal land. As private lands continue to close to certain uses (like ATV, snomobiles, or camping) or close completely , we see increased pressure on DNR and other public lands to provide recreation. The trend only seems to be more closures, leading to increaseing demand on public land. The DNR must have a funding mechanism and the legal authority to acquire easements to our public lands.
Cheryl Brandt 8:23 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My favorite DNR managed lands surround the Les Hilde trailhead near Sedro Woolley and I am a horseback rider and have helped in GPS’ing the trail system there. I am dissappointed that the DNR has not moved forward with the last step of giving the public the map that has taken a tremendous amout of volunteer hours and DNR hours to produce only to have this project shelved. There are over 76 trails and well over 100 miles there to enjoy almost year around. Having a map with trail names is a most important safety issue and will help emergency services find and rescue injured or lost individuals.
Randy Diefert 9:17 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I agree with Cheryl here. I also ride the Les Hilde Trail system and don’t understand why the DNR doesn’t publish the Map that some many volunteered to help produce. Yhis updated map will be a benefit to all trail user groupsand is an important safety issue.
Marc T 9:44 pm on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Is this area open to off-road motorcycling?
Kevin V 7:55 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
My name is Kevin, and I am a 4×4 user, and one of many DNR Volunteers at Walker Valley ORV Park who put many many hours in, and dollars through our fuel tanks to help keep the one and only are in the NW region open!!!
Although I disagree with some of the numbers Jakob has used for examples of the amt of unauthorized trails within the W.V. ORV, I do agree that there just aren’t enough legal 4×4 trails in the NW region to sustain the amount of 4×4 users this region has…Ultimately causing overuse/misuse/abuse of existing ORV systems…And yes, Reiter will not be the fix, but it will help lessen the burden Walker has endured since its closure….
A plan does need to be devised to restore trail mileage within the NW region, within the existing ORV area, as well as look at opening other areas of potential for a sustainable 4×4 trail system…
And I’d also like to thank the existing DNR staff for doing everything they do on such limited funds…these folks do deserve alot more thanks than they get…..without them, where would anything recreation-wise be at this point on DNR land????
Jeff Chapman 7:38 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
Being a Back Country horseman, I find DNR lands to offer a wide variety of opportunities throughout the state that bring the equestrian trail riding community together as well as provide us with easy access to day riding (due to proximity to areas we live in). I like riding at Green Mountain, Sahara Creek (Elbe Hills), Capitol Forest, Les Hilde, and Yacolt Burn. Over the years I’ve had many good times at all of these places.
I also hike on DNR lands though I generally favor USFS and NPS lands for this purpose since federal lands in my area (Olympic Peninsula) provide a wide range of high valued trails with great scenic vistas (not to mention Wilderness).
As to the second part of the question, DNR seems to struggle to provide a funding stream for recreation due to changes in resourse use, bad timber markets, and a bad state economy. More pressure is put on volunteers to step up to the plate. Also there seems to be more vandalism and unwanted behavior as population centers grow near DNR recreational facilities.
Thank you to all of the DNR recreational staff for their efforts to provide recreational support during these hard economic times.
Robert Schafer 7:22 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I recreate on DNR managed lands at least 30 days each year. Primary form of recreation is ATV related and includes Ahtanum State Forest, Wenas Wildlife Area, L.T. Murray Wildlife Area, Naneum Ridge Forest, Colockum, and Quilomene. These areas allow ATV use as part of a Green Dot Road Management System which is greatly appreciated by ATV clubs and users. Many of these areas would be suitable for development of ATV trails which would be compatible with other land uses. I think that DNR has an opportunity to apply for NOVA and other funding to increase recreational use of state trust lands which would increase the public recreational opportunities without conflict with the Trust responsibilities. A good example of how this can be done is to look at how Morrow County in Oregon used ATV permit and other funding to create an OHV park about 30 miles south of Heppner, OR.
Jakob P 7:13 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
I’m a 4×4 user, who frequents the Walker Valley ORV trail system in Skagit County.
Over the past 5 years, we’ve seen substantial unmanaged ORV trail closures, while seeing little in return. While the intentions with Reiter, NF, P5000 were good, closure effectively took away 200 miles of unauthorized trails in three areas. Unfortunate for both groups, these three areas were bad for ORV use. Reiter will only open with 9 miles of 4×4 trail (original ~40 miles). North Fork (Whatcom Co) had great potential, however its proximity to the river, and frequent disregard for accessing trails near it caused the whole area to be shut down. P5000 is located in a watershed, which isn’t compatible with ORV use. While Walker Valley is a good location for ORV use, only 4 miles have been designated to 4x4s.
200 miles to 4 miles in 5 years is not sustainable.
Today there are no unmanaged areas publically open to ORVs. However there are about 30 areas that are ‘secretly’ utilized by groups of ORV users. DNR needs to look at some of these areas, identify the ones that could be environmentally sustainable, and play triage with volunteer groups to help manage water quality, erosion and other environmental issues on these unmanaged lands. While its not perfect, it will allow user groups to fund-raise and organize work parties. Taking responsibility in keeping these lands environmentally sustainable, will help start the long process to becoming an authorized ORV trail. Even in managed lands, there are numerous unmanaged trails due to unsustainable actions of DNR. Walker Valley has the only authorized 4 miles of 4×4 trail in the NW region. 30 miles of singletrack/orv trail. Its not surprising that another 60 miles of motorcycle and 10 miles of 4×4 trail exist. Instead of trying to enforce closure of these trails (which has been proven not to work), DNR should work with user groups to identify and work on making and/or keeping these trails sustainable. The vast majority of ORV users want to recreate legally. However, the closures in the past 5 years have caused many to recreate on unauthorized trail because there is no other option. DNR cannot expect 70,000 users to fit within the authorized trail specs today, nor should it expect the re-opening of Reiter to fix the problem. A master plan needs to be devised, that restores 200+ miles of trail to the NW region.